Help Designing for Large Multifamily. Minimal Infrastructur.

[JBull 0]

I have a large (65,000 sq ft) multifamily I am trying to upgrade the monitoring on. It is basically 3 finished floors of roughly 21,000 sq ft each. Basically one long hallway (broken up by fire doors) with a wider central hub for the elevator and common areas. Also a full unfinished basement.

Currently there are 8 junk cameras doing the two lobbies, 2 exterior doors and 2 minor exterior coverage. This is far from enough and I would ideally like 2 per lobby , 1 per exterior door, 4-5 PTZ for the parking and exterior, 3 more for elevator lobbies, 4 per floor (12 total) for the hallways, 2 per major common area (4 total) and 3 per stairwell (9 total).

Existing quotes were way out of the budget, but the worst was running ugly conduit EVERYWHERE. I have been trying to figure out a combination of wireless, powerline adaptors (EOP), POE, etc that could get this done. I was even thinking of utilizing hidden cameras in the Exit lighting and Emergency Lamps but only for the convenience of the install and powering, not the hidden factor. I am WAY WAY over my head at this point though.

I have two contractors recommended by TrendNet coming out next week, but would apreciate some suggestions or advice to further educate myself before then.

Thanks in advance

[shockwave199 0]

Where is your 'junk' dvr located now? Why wasn't conduit run for the camera runs? How was the cable run to get to the eight locations thus far? If you can't do the install yourself, it's gonna cost some big bucks to have it done. And if you hand an installer a wish list with 4-5 ptz's, you're really ballooning your budget- they will hammer you with cost for that. Tell them the areas you want covered and let them tell you what they suggest to get that done. It could come in for less money. Frankly I'd only consider an HD system for starting fresh. If you're relegated to hiring the job out, put the budget into megapixel cameras. Even 1.3 megapixel is enough. You don't necessarily need 3 or 5 mega pixel cameras, by any means. So don't be sold on that. But well placed mega pixel cameras will all but eliminate the need for ptz's. Of course you could have one ptz if you wanted. But you may find you don't even need that. HD cameras are that far superior. Does the building have an attic space above? Between that or the basement, it might make it a bit easier to run the wires. Do not go for wireless. Multi family, with all those wireless networks and gadgets will likely make it a nightmare for your own needs.

[JBull 0]

Thank you Shockwave.

Good point on the wireless interference and megapixle HD

The old system has a dvr down in the basement. It looks like cat 5 that runs out from there through the rest of the basement to the majority of the cameras. There is obviously some conduit, but they places the cameras as close as possible to the basement level to minimize the install. Basically the old owner of the building chose the cheapest thing he could get (in comparison to what the property could actually use) from the cheapest guy he could find.

There is no attic space on the building. There is a locked closet on all three floors in the center of the building that could be used for vertical runs, but the problem of branching out with conduit is still there.

We could also run horizontally in the basement , but then we are running conduit vertically in the halls.

This is why I started looking into Powerline adapters for EOP and found TrendNET. I was thinking EOP to a POE. While this would eliminate the conduit runs I'm not sure if it would end up being cost effective.

The PTZ's is what was recommended by the installers I have already had out. I'm sure a better solution can be worked out than what I was being quoted. I will not be doing the install, but need to get up to speed on the options so I can make a smart buy.

[ssnapier 0]

For pure aesthetics you could insist on wiremold instead of conduit, but the cost goes up slightly. I think if the conduit were painted it would not really be that much of an eyesore. By my count you are look at something like 45 cameras unless I misunderstood something.

 

I would guess most contractors are quoting you between $8,000 and $12,000 for labor and another $1200 to $1800 per camera on average which at 45 cameras is between $64,000 and $81,000. That doesn't include the recorder or any cabling which is probably at least another $5,500 for cabling and about $6,000 for the NVR plus hard drives at about $300 each and I am guessing you would need about 6 of them. By the way no conduit was included in this.

 

So my random guess at a quote without even including conduit or seeing the building is between $85,300 and $106,300. This of course is an investment that would last for 10 years or more if kept up properly. Broken down over ten years that is $8530 per year or $710.83 per month on the low side and $10,630 per year and $885.83 per month on the high side.

 

The question now is are you willing to make that kind of investment in your property?

[JBull 0]

It isnt so much a matter of am I willing to invest in the property. I most definitely am. We are currently in the middle of a renovation well over 1Mil. It is mostly making sure it is the best possible investment and minimizing the aesthetic impact and cost by trying to utilize the existing properties of the building as much as possible.

 

Your rough quote also brings up another interesting question. I have been getting quotes between 30k and 40k. And per the description I gave since this is what the described to me that would best cover the property. Am I walking into just a larger version of the junk system that was installed years ago? Am I completely missunderstanding what is being told to me by the two contractors who have taken a look? Or am I just one of the PITA clients who thinks he needs way more than he does and they are scaling down the system in a way that will still fit my needs?

 

Maybe I am overthinking the system and you guys can help me find a way to best keep an eye on things. I dont need to watch every little thing on the property, but I do need enough coverage to make sure vandals and criminals are not messing up all of my renovation work and keep my good tenants safe.

[JBull 0]

Another question to throw into the mix. I was just having a brainstorm session with one of the contractors in the mix. He is not a CCTV guy, but probably one of the smartest electricians any of us ever met.

 

If I was to go all POE with well placed conduit we could do a POE system relatively easily. The question for that and its viability comes down to number of runs and that hard cost. What I dont know is can you put POE cameras in series or does each need a home run to the POE switch?

 

Obviously that makes a big difference in install cost of the infrastructure as well as its aesthetic impact (size of conduit).

 

Thanks guys

[ak357 0]

Another question to throw into the mix. I was just having a brainstorm session with one of the contractors in the mix. He is not a CCTV guy, but probably one of the smartest electricians any of us ever met.

 

What I dont know is can you put POE cameras in series or does each need a home run to the POE switch?

 

"smartest electricians any of us ever met."

should be able to answer this question in 5 sec

[JBull 0]

Didn't think of it until after we hung up. That's why I asked you guys.

[shockwave199 0]

The question for that and its viability comes down to number of runs and that hard cost. What I dont know is can you put POE cameras in series or does each need a home run to the POE switch?

No, I don't believe you can do that. You can use more than one POE switch though, placing them in close proximity to certain areas to get cameras powered in that zone, and then running only one line from the POE switch to another switch along the way.

[ssnapier 0]

Yeah we generally put a switch on each floor and then a single run between each floor's switch and the "big" switch that is located with the recorder. If you have long hallways or complicated runs, there is nothing stopping you from having 2 or 3 switches per floor. If the longest run is too long, you have two choices. You can just take it to the nearest switch and then back out and keep on truckin' or you can get switches that accept SFP's and run fiber to the big switch. Of course if you run fiber, you will need enough SFP slots at the big switch to accept everything coming to it. Just an FYI... if anyone tries to charge you more than $175 for an SFP punch them in the face and then come back here for a better source. Obviously this takes a bit of planning to make sure your switches are sized properly.

 

Also, please for the love of everything holy... PLEASE use good quality uninterruptable power supplies at every single switch throughout this installation. Power outages are prime time for morons to do stupid crap and you want video of that. They also provide a bit of line conditioning to make sure the cameras are getting good clean power.

 

Where are you located?

[ilk 0]

Instead of thinking of PTZs, consider panoramic 360 degree POE cameras.

 

To assist with with cable runs you can purchase specialist quadrant style low profile PVC trunking which can be colour co-ordinated which can e run at the ceiling/wall junction or wall/floor junction or on a skirting top.

 

Remember that with an IP system cable runs are limited to 90m, so consider installing POW switches on each floor with a fibre backbone linking the switches.

 

If money is not too muck of a problem there is also flat tape style fibre optic cable which can be painted over or run behind wall paper.

 

 

Ilkie

[Neutech 0]

Where in the World are you located?

[JBull 0]

Thanks for the input guys. Looks like we are definitely going POE with a combination of switches per floor (in the maintenance closets and maybe two more in the basement at the ends of the building to power vertical runs out there.

The prices for this are far more reasonable than what I had been getting before and I am much more comfortable with the aesthetic impact.

I will be looking into that tape style cable that was mentioned too. Sounds like a great solution

The project is in central Connecticut USA.