RG-59 Siamese Quality Issues

[glasssplinter 0]

Have one of those questions that luckily I thought of before I buy. I need RG-59 siamese cable to rewire existing and new residential cameras. I have the compression tool, a Klein, and the BNC connectors but have yet to purchase the cable. I've looked into a couple of different brands of cable and surprise, am confused by the options available. My biggest concern is the outer braid on most cables is CCA, the center and 18/2 is all pure copper. Belden sells pure copper RG-59 siamese but it's roughly double that of the ones with CCA outer braid. Any advice from the professionals on it? Thanks!

 

Forgot to add that this is for analog cameras, nothing hi res or anything. All runs should be under a 100 ft.

[myiicu 0]

I recommend Belden 549945 Siamese cable for most analog camera installations.

 

http://www.belden.com/techdatas/metric/549945.pdf

 

Belden 549945 is very consistent and reliable.

 

Comes in black or white and footage is sequentially marked every 2 feet.

 

 

If you choose another brand, make sure the solid center conductor is pure copper and not copper coated steel.

 

Copper coated steel is not recommended for CCTV and will cause "skin effect".

 

http://www.belden.com/blog/broadcastav/Understanding-Skin-Effect-and-Frequency.cfm

 

I use a magnet to check for the presence of iron/steel.

Edited June 29, 2014 by Guest

[glasssplinter 0]

Thanks for the info. I had looked into Belden before and know they make good stuff. The inside wire on most bulk spools are solid copper but it's the braid on them that I'm worried about. The skin effect is a pretty neat deal and the CCTV falls far below the range of the beneficial effects of it. Time for a little more research...

[tomcctv 187]

Hi. At this point I would look at a good quality car 5 or 6

This will give you more options in future

[Numb-nuts 1]

I use a magnet to check for the presence of iron/steel.

 

Oh the cheapsters; are way ahead of you, there;s also CCA copper coated aluminium (aluminum to our American cousins) and the magnet ain't gonna reveal that. Same issue when using cat5 watch out for and avoid CCS and CCA, I use my electrical scissors and scrape the copper which soon reveals a copper coating with steel or aluminium core.

 

A nice quality cat5 with solid copper conductors and suitable indoor or outdoor rating. Remember it should be UTP ONLY shielded doesn't seem to be as good "in the resulting signal its pants"

 

If you have long straight runs you could use cat6 but not where there are lots of bends and turns as it doesn't handle as well as cat5. If you do use cat6 terminate it with proper cat6 RJ45s, the ones with staggered conductor arrangement called a loading bar.

If you feed the pairs into a screw down terminal, then use copper end ferrules to ensure a great connection. Screwing down onto single solid conductors can often lead to fractured conductor and intermittent connection failures. Using ferrules (which have very malleable copper) allows the screw down terminal to have something to bite into instead of fracturing the conductor.

I have proven the worth of ferrules time and time again. I prefer when I can to use RJ45 jacks at the receiver ends of a 4/8/16 way passive balun.

 

BELOW, YOU CAN EITHER USE THE SCREW DOWN TERMINAL SECTION OR THE RJ45 INPUT, BUT YOU CANNOT USE A COMBINATION OF BOTH

 

[glasssplinter 0]

Interesting posts for using CAT cable. I had thought about doing that but didn't feel I was going to save too much on it. I have 4 cameras on the house which are probably under 40' each and I'll be trenching 1 1/2" conduit out to my garage which will house an additional 4 or more cameras (got room for 16). I can see where running one CAT cable under the house to the garage would benefit saving a 100' or so, but then I would have to feed a power cable as well for each camera. I'm actually using a 25A MFJ power supply to power all of the cameras. Highly regulated and allows for voltage adjustment between 9 and 15 volts. Plus both the power supply and camera system is plugged into a UPS so I don't want to spread too far from that. The future proofing of the install is the large conduit which can easily be pulled again, and attic space in the garage. It's interesting that the quality of coax matters but you can switch to CAT cable and it works even though it's thinner wire. Yeah, I've read quite abit about the tricks they play with cable now. They list the braid coverage but not the type of wire or just vague terms so you never know what you're getting...copper is just too darn expensive these days and the PR people are doing their best to hide the fact that it's not copper.

[glasssplinter 0]

Numb-nuts, looked into that 4 channel transmitter and I think I'm just going to bite the bullet and buy the Belden RG59. By the time I buy two of those I've got about $60 tied up in that. Not saying they don't work but I think for this short of a run the cost of the equipment would surpass the cable costs. If I ever have the money to upgrade to a networked system I wouldn't mind have some extra RG lying around for the radios. Thanks for the help!

[Numb-nuts 1]

Numb-nuts, looked into that 4 channel transmitter and I think I'm just going to bite the bullet and buy the Belden RG59. By the time I buy two of those I've got about $60 tied up in that. Not saying they don't work but I think for this short of a run the cost of the equipment would surpass the cable costs. If I ever have the money to upgrade to a networked system I wouldn't mind have some extra RG lying around for the radios. Thanks for the help!

 

OH Brother...?

[glasssplinter 0]

 

OH Brother...?

 

Sorry, not getting the reference here...

[the toss 0]

I can see where running one CAT cable under the house to the garage would benefit saving a 100' or so, but then I would have to feed a power cable as well for each camera. .

 

While I am NOT a great fan of cat 5/6 & baluns, the scenario of 4 cameras to a detached garage is THE perfect situation for their use. Use the 4 way baluns shown by numbnuts and power the cameras from within the garage.

[glasssplinter 0]

So did some math and in this case it's not going to pay off. I can save approximately 50 ft of cable per camera by using the CAT. If I run 4 cameras, I have to spend about $60 for the adapters, plus the CAT cable, plus another power supply, plus extra BNC ends, plus to have another UPS is about $50. So I'm looking at close to $150 for everything. If I stick with just the RG-59 siamese, I spend about $68 on cable, have no breaks in the cable and everything runs off of one battery backed up power supply. Now, if I had anything over 125 ft, the savings would be enough to consider but I'm just not seeing how going the route of CAT cable is going to pay off in this case.

[variador 0]

Just my two cents.

 

 

Running cable is the most time consuming thing for me.

Second most time consuming thing is stripping wire and putting ends on.

Using single baluns on cat5 yields two to four connections per cable run depending on where you get the power from. Putting baluns on cat 5 is much faster than putting ends on coax cable.

Never have bought expensive baluns. Usually about six dollars a piece. Always have had good luck with them. The speed of installation makes up any difference in cost of hardware.

Now talk about cable management. 16 Siamese video cables going to one DVR can get to be a real mess. One cat 5 can represent four cameras from one area. This setup can be kept much cleaner and easier to troubleshoot. IMHO.

Run two different color cat5 cables, one for color for video and one color for power and you can locate your DVR in one place and your power box in another. This keeps 32 supply wire sets separated on a 16 input DVR. Nothing says that you have to supply all the power from one place either. Keep the power supplies close to camera groups and run less wire shorter distances.

 

 

Great to hear everyone's opinions and techniques

Don

[Numb-nuts 1]

I can see where running one CAT cable under the house to the garage would benefit saving a 100' or so, but then I would have to feed a power cable as well for each camera. .

 

While I am NOT a great fan of cat 5/6 & baluns, the scenario of 4 cameras to a detached garage is THE perfect situation for their use. Use the 4 way baluns shown by numbnuts and power the cameras from within the garage.

 

CORRECTAMUNDO

[tomcctv 187]

So did some math and in this case it's not going to pay off. I can save approximately 50 ft of cable per camera by using the CAT. If I run 4 cameras, I have to spend about $60 for the adapters, plus the CAT cable, plus another power supply, plus extra BNC ends, plus to have another UPS is about $50. So I'm looking at close to $150 for everything. If I stick with just the RG-59 siamese, I spend about $68 on cable, have no breaks in the cable and everything runs off of one battery backed up power supply. Now, if I had anything over 125 ft, the savings would be enough to consider but I'm just not seeing how going the route of CAT cable is going to pay off in this case.

 

 

 

Hi. Cat5 will always be cheaper ......... Use single baluns and save on BNCs

 

As far as power unit for your garage ...... It is always best to have more than one power unit ....... If a camera takes out your power unit all cameras are gone so garage to have its own is a good option.

 

Pulling cat5 is also future options on systems

[glasssplinter 0]

So I've decided to go with the CAT5e, which is a UV resistant, shielded foil plus braided shielding. It's also pure copper, not CCA or anything. The reason being is the cable management, I hadn't completely thought how big 16 RG59 cables would be. I've gone with keystone jacks and RJ45 termination and will be building these as a plug and play network...so long as you plug in the correct jack. I'll look at the option of running a second power supply but IME, the wall warts are POS and put out unregulated voltage with sporadic spikes that cause problems. I'm currently running a 25 amp MFJ power supply with adjustable voltage to power everything. The voltage drop on 100' was about 2 volts, enough that I'm not happy with it. Plan is to run a 14 ga THHN pair underground to a distribution point in the garage. This will keep the drop at a more acceptable level.

 

The plan now is drop 4 cables through the floor and split them under the house in a junction box. 2 will run to the garage for a possible 8 cameras, 2 for the house for 8 more. Once they exit the safety of the house, they will run into a liquid tight connection into a single gang weathertight box where the camera will mount. Inside will house the balun and power adapter for a few of the cameras, the others are bare end wires. The 2 cables running to the garage will go inside 3/4" conduit and be dug underground. We'll see how the whole project turns out. Thanks for everyone's input on this

[Dirk_D 0]

I like your plan - be sure to report how it works.

 

Why aren't you going w/ POE/ IP cameras? Cost I guess This equipment is really getting good and cheap.

[tomcctv 187]

Forger punch down boxes and don't split cat5 you just going to make problems.

 

Cat5 to each camera or 1 cat5 to location of 2 cameras (gives room for power)

 

But don't cut or split cat5

[glasssplinter 0]

I like your plan - be sure to report how it works.

 

Why aren't you going w/ POE/ IP cameras? Cost I guess This equipment is really getting good and cheap.

 

Cost is the biggest issue. I acquired a used DX8016 for almost nothing since it wasn't working that great but a few parts fixed it up. Eventually I'd like to go IP but I've got other bigger issues with the house that need fixing before I worry about upgrading to that. The good news is I've wired the house with CAT 6 and have gigabit speeds in every room, so the upgrade will be fairly painless...in theory anyway

[glasssplinter 0]

Forger punch down boxes and don't split cat5 you just going to make problems.

 

Cat5 to each camera or 1 cat5 to location of 2 cameras (gives room for power)

 

But don't cut or split cat5

 

So for CCTV you can't terminate like you can for normal networking? The plan was to combine 4 video signals from each corner and crimp them all down into a plug. Let's say I want to run 2 cameras off 1 cable that sit on top of the house but they are 25ft apart. How would you split the wires for that or would I have to run a second cable for it?

[tomcctv 187]

Forger punch down boxes and don't split cat5 you just going to make problems.

 

Cat5 to each camera or 1 cat5 to location of 2 cameras (gives room for power)

 

But don't cut or split cat5

 

So for CCTV you can't terminate like you can for normal networking? The plan was to combine 4 video signals from each corner and crimp them all down into a plug. Let's say I want to run 2 cameras off 1 cable that sit on top of the house but they are 25ft apart. How would you split the wires for that or would I have to run a second cable for it?

 

 

Hi run separate ......... Same with doing a network less joins in cable the better ..... In network I would not join at all

[glasssplinter 0]

So I've gotta say I'm slightly confused at best. The idea here was everyone was saying CAT is cheaper because you can run four signals over it. As a home installer who has to buy bulk cable with no future jobs, I'll be using the same amount of CAT cable as I would have been using RG cable. Both were sold in 1000' spools and the RG was actually cheaper since I didn't have to buy baluns for every camera. The only advantage with using the CAT is cable management but even that seems minimal since I'll still have to run a separate cable for each camera. The idea with jacks was to combine, securely terminate them and bring up minimal cable through the floor and keep the messes in junction boxes at the cameras, under the house and up in the garage attic.

[myiicu 0]

The 2 cables running to the garage will go inside 3/4" conduit and be dug underground.

 

If possible go big with that main conduit to the garage.

 

I recommend 2" conduit for most installations for future expansion.

 

Also, molded HDMI connector needs about 1" diameter space to pass through the conduit.

 

For the TVs/Monitors in the garage...

[glasssplinter 0]

Guess I could give an update on this project so others hopefully will avoid the issues I've faced. The whole project has turned out just like a government job, over budget, past deadline, and sub par performance. Here's what I would suggest to the average Joe installing their own system. Stick with what the cameras were designed with. Analog cameras - RG59, IP Cat. The "future proofing" is simply not worth it. Most of my cameras have some sort of distortion / interference that I have yet to locate. Yet, the other "cost saving" options of running higher quality multiple signal baluns is hardly cost savings when you have to buy 2 types of cables plus the baluns. The other costs that had to be added were the electrical boxes to protect the fragile connections and the weatherproof connectors has made this job cost more then just doing it right the first time. Other then the conduit the whole project is one giant regret due to a poor cable choice suggested on here. Next time you wander around and check out a store, check what kind of connections they are using on analog cameras, RG cable and crimped BNC connections. Obviously there is a reason, it works.

[the toss 0]

I've just read back over the posts to try & find out why your project has gone pear shaped for you. I think your main focus has been to save as much as possible and make do instead of focusing on the outcome. I've got no idea why you have to buy 1000' of two different types of cable or weatherproof boxes. I'll go over my suggested method step by step with approx pricing.

* 4 cameras mounted on garage. Flying leads through wall to inside

* each camera wired to a central point using RG59 siamese & BNC 4 x 10m siamese = $40

8 x BNC = $8

* 4 way balun & 5A plugpack Balun =$35

Plugpack =$15

* House end - 4 way balun = $35

4 RG59 patch leads with 8 x BNC about $15

 

OK garage done. One cat 5/6 with RJ45 plug each end now runs back to the house end & plugs into the other 4 way balun then with another 4 RG59 "patch " leads into the DVR.

Total cost of cabling the garage (not incl conduit , labour etc) $150.

 

$150 is not much & it's simply not worth trying to save a couple of dollars when you end up with unsatisfactory outcomes.

[glasssplinter 0]

the toss, thanks for the input on the project. My biggest complaint is that all of these little parts just add up for basically no gain in my case. My labor and time is free so I have no problems with solder connections or compression fits in the case of the BNC connections. As an installer you can quickly make that difference up. Here's what happened during the install.

 

Cameras are mounted on the outside wall and for the garage were easy enough to grab the wires through the wall. However the 6 cameras that are on the house have no easy method other than an 9 ft drill bit to go through the top and bottom plate of the house. Either that or cut holes in the wall to drill through the bottom plate. It's actually a mobile home so no attic access. So each camera mounted to the house has to have a weatherproof box to house each cable and the video balun along with the dc power plug. Add an average $9 for each camera box for the box, faceplate, and a cord clamp. The wires have to run along the side of the house until I can either bring them in through the hot water heater room or the conduit I ran down the side of the house to the crawl space. If I would have used RG-59 I could have left all of the connections exposed and only have to support the wires. So already that would have saved about $54 on unnecessary extras. That takes care of the house side.

 

For the garage since I don't have to factor in labor and since I already had to dig a trench I could have just as easily dropped 2" conduit vs the 1 1/4" I dropped in. Cameras to the garage would not have had any breaks and could easily be expanded via the rope I left in the conduit.

 

Onto the wire and buying two spools. All of the little patch cables and what add up fast. Add into that most of them are much smaller then true RG-59. So the $55 quoted for the cables could have easily gone to a spool of the real stuff that I would actually know the quality of instead of pre made junk cables. Most of those are probably CCA and have very little shielding on them. So literally the $150 to wire just the garage up could have wired the garage and the house with RG-59.

 

An estimate for the totals spent are close to $250 just for cable, baluns, boxes, and a few misc parts. Mind you I bought 1000ft Cat5e CMX SFTP, UV resistant, outdoor, shielded foil and braid. Add in another $75+ for conduit and the misc fittings to install that. So Cat installation total around $325. For siamese RG59 I could have picked that up for $110+ends and maybe 100 for conduit. Total under $250 plus better picture quality and an overall cleaner outside install.