Assistance and advice humbly requested

[thang 0]

Hello all. I reside in sunny Perth, Western Australia - two storey house facing a street which is around 10 metres from the porch of my place. I want to install a CCTV system which will have the following attributes:

 

1. Immediate installation of two IP66 cameras at points already selected on front of house with sufficient range for facial features to be captured for 10 metres.

2. Possibility of additional cameras in future at other points in the yard + internal cameras - to be added to the system.

3. Good quality IR - hopefully up to same range as day time capture of facial features @ 10 metres.

4. Recording ability

5. Ability to enter system with PC or smartphone from anywhere in the world (IP or router - I don't know yet)

6. Front cameras to be encapsulated in darkened material such that direction of cameras cannot be identified.

7. Motion sensor recording - ie not permanent recording. Motion perhaps sets of 15 minutes or so of recording.

8. Available in Australia.

9. If possible, available through such organisations as DealExtreme - not a necessity though, quality first.

10. Capable of being installed by a handy fellow who is conversant with IP, routers, PCs, cabling etc.

 

Sorry if my ignorance shines through here, this will be my first experience with CCTV and on reviewing the responses to similar requests here, I take my hat off to some of the quality advice and experience and knowhow on display. I have several months to get this installed before we go overseas again.

 

regards

[Boogieman 1]

Start reading the ip/megapixel section of the forum...

[thang 0]

Well thanks for the informative reply. I assume that you think I've posted this in the wrong sub-forum otherwise undoubtedly you would have provided a little more information, just a little, than a brusque reference to read in another part of the forum.

 

I need a start point mate. That's the thing. I've just read a few posts in the part you pointed me to and there are people asking much the same question as myself and getting reasonably informative responses, no brushoffs that I can see.

 

Therefore, my assumption that what you really meant was, repost in that forum. Correct?

 

Really, mate, you could have given me a little bit of info though. This is a forum, where people go to learn, and that's what I'm trying to do. When I get some information, then I'll plunge deeper of my own accord. Even you, master of all, would have needed a start point at some stage.

 

I have another thought as well - I would like to upload to the cloud, so that there is no physical media in my house which can be tampered with, stolen or copied.

 

Is recording to the cloud covered in that sub-forum as well? Do *you* know if it can be done?

[Boogieman 1]

Everything you asked is covered in detail.....I understand, you dont want to take the time or effort to do the proper research....Fine...hire a professional. Otherwise start researching then ask specific questions.

You are not trying to learn, but rather have free personal consultant. Big difference.

[ak357 0]

Everything you asked is covered in detail.....I understand, you dont want to take the time or effort to do the proper research....Fine...hire a professional. Otherwise start researching then ask specific questions.

You are not trying to learn, but rather have free personal consultant. Big difference.

+1

[SunnyKim 2]

Thang,

Most of your requirements are listed as features of most of IP cameras currently selling on the market. Go get any them. Try it or return it, if you do not like.

[SunnyKim 2]

Please allow me to add some more. Most of people recommend IP cameras from Hik Vision or Daihua. They are good worthy of their price. But they are using the same chip and the same software and the same materials, as other much cheaper brand's. You may expect better Tech supports from them, by paying a higher price. If you can not get such supports as expected, you actually waste the money. Do they think you can get Supports from those brand companies? Are you sure? You better buy from local dealers because they basically know about what they are selling to survive.

[SyconsciousAu 0]

Hello all. I reside in sunny Perth, Western Australia - two storey house facing a street which is around 10 metres from the porch of my place. I want to install a CCTV system which will have the following attributes:

 

Australian and NZ Police CCTV Design Advice.

 

Read that thread.

 

1. Immediate installation of two IP66 cameras at points already selected on front of house with sufficient range for facial features to be captured for 10 metres.

 

By "range" I think you might be talking about being able to identify someone at that distance.

 

http://cctvdesign.com.au/tutorials/cameras-choosing-resolution/surveillance-camera-comparison-parameters

 

 

Have a read of that for a quick primer on pixel densities required for various applications.

 

http://www.theiatech.com/calculator.php

 

You can then use a lens calculator like that to give you a rough idea of the coverage and pixels per meter you will get for any given lens/camera combination.

 

On the left hand side of the page you will find a link to a CCTV design tool. There is a free trial period.

 

2. Possibility of additional cameras in future at other points in the yard + internal cameras - to be added to the system.

 

Additional cameras is as easy as buying a poe router or nvr with enough ports.

 

Why do you want internal cameras though? With the possible exception of a very narrow field of view camera covering an external door because it is a natural choke point, I recommend against them in homes. IP cameras are potentially viewable by people on the internet. Do you want the risk a stranger will be watching you and your family? From a security /evidence point of view there is nothing to be gained from having camera's inside your house. They are more likely to compromise your security.

 

3. Good quality IR - hopefully up to same range as day time capture of facial features @ 10 metres.

 

Assuming you have enough pixels per meter for identification, most external cameras with IR will do this on a static face.

 

Night time video has challenges though. A camera will compensate for low light by using a longer exposure, or increasing gain (known as ISO in still photography). A longer exposure means moving objects, like the face of a person walking/running through the scene, become blurred. Higher shutter speeds reduce or eliminate motion blur but they make the scene dark so you need external lighting, be that white light or IR. Higher gain increases the graininess of the image.

4. Recording ability

 

I'm assuming you mean to an on board SD card. There are plenty of camera's with this feature but it does prevent you using some excellent cameras like the Hikvision DS-2CD2332F turret cams which have excellent IR. Do you need this feature because you are not going to run an NVR and will be relying on the camera's on board storage for recording, or do you just want it as a backup?

5. Ability to enter system with PC or smartphone from anywhere in the world (IP or router - I don't know yet).

 

Again a fairly common feature of most cameras / NVR systems.

 

6. Front cameras to be encapsulated in darkened material such that direction of cameras cannot be identified.

 

This requirement restricts you to domes and rules out a number of excellent cameras. Domes also have issues with IR bleed at night.

 

You can see which way my cameras point, but it is impossible to know their field of view, and even if you did it wouldn't matter anyway because I have them set up to overlap. I recommend not attempting to compensate for lack of genuine coverage with a perception that the camera could be pointing anywhere.

 

7. Motion sensor recording - ie not permanent recording. Motion perhaps sets of 15 minutes or so of recording.

 

Again pretty standard.

 

8. Available in Australia.

 

Aye, there's the rub. We pay Australia Tax down under. You can get cameras locally but expect to pay a 150%(or more) premium on them. I get mine out of China through Aliexpress and have never had an issue. Delivery in less than a week. You roll the dice though because whilst there is warranty, to send it back almost costs more than the camera.

 

10. Capable of being installed by a handy fellow who is conversant with IP, routers, PCs, cabling etc.

 

Sorry if my ignorance shines through here, this will be my first experience with CCTV and on reviewing the responses to similar requests here, I take my hat off to some of the quality advice and experience and know how on display. I have several months to get this installed before we go overseas again.

 

regards

 

Physically, the biggest pain in the arse with installing IP cameras is pulling the cable. Apart from that it is almost plug and play. What I do recommend is sitting down and working out exactly what you want to achieve, and design the set up with the end goal firmly in mind, otherwise you just end up re-doing things over and over, and wasting money in the process.

 

Anything is achievable with enough money but if you have a hard budget limit you will probably need to change your requirements to fit in with that.

 

As you can see some of the forum members are fairly snarky and unforgiving, and on a forum where so many cheapskates want free advice that is worth thousands of dollars, I understand that to a degree. We Aussies have to stick together though.

[the toss 0]

Well thanks for the informative reply. I assume that you think I've posted this in the wrong sub-forum otherwise undoubtedly you would have provided a little more information, just a little, than a brusque reference to read in another part of the forum.

 

I need a start point mate. That's the thing. I've just read a few posts in the part you pointed me to and there are people asking much the same question as myself and getting reasonably informative responses, no brushoffs that I can see.

 

Therefore, my assumption that what you really meant was, repost in that forum. Correct?

 

Really, mate, you could have given me a little bit of info though. This is a forum, where people go to learn, and that's what I'm trying to do. When I get some information, then I'll plunge deeper of my own accord. Even you, master of all, would have needed a start point at some stage.

 

I have another thought as well - I would like to upload to the cloud, so that there is no physical media in my house which can be tampered with, stolen or copied.

 

Is recording to the cloud covered in that sub-forum as well? Do *you* know if it can be done?

 

You've taken Boogieman's response the wrong way. Many people get fed up with answering the same questions over & over. I think it is reasonable (like he said) to do a bit of searching & reading & then pose a more specific question

[thang 0]

Thanks SysconsciousAu. Your Police Recommendations document is invaluable and well worth the read (and application). And yes, we Aussies do need to stick together

 

I live in quite a wealthy area, almost gated in some parts, and we don't appear to have the crime which is prevalent elsewhere (apart from a well known bikie who lives around the corner, or should I say, lived - he's doing 6 years in a far bigger house at the moment). By that, I mean practically every house, and there are only a few bungalows, is alarmed, and many residents are elderly and home all day, and as in most 2 storey neighbourhoods, most backyards are not entirely private. Our place has plenty of deadlocks, window and sliding door locks, gate locks and is alarmed with attentive neighbours and we haven't ever been burgled.

 

However we travel overseas a bit and wanted not to depend on other people looking at our place while away - we want a system which uploads to the cloud, only records when triggered and has resolution and robustness meeting the specs set out by the police in your document. We don't have a real budget, but can spend up to say $5K or so for a decent system - ie we're not bound to the systems from DX or similar, but if there *are* decent systems which can be purchased from HK (I use Deal Extreme a fair bit for other stuff) then why not?

 

In response to the other narky bugger who blew his nose in my direction - mate, I'm not short of a quid and therefore don't need cheap advice in order to save money. I have a passion for understanding tech, and that's what I wanted - not your cheap or free advice. SO there ...

 

 

 

Your assistance is invaluable and now that I have some time, I will take it from there. The web reference (http://cctvdesign.com.au/tutorials/cameras-choosing-resolution/surveillance-camera-comparison-parameters) I've just converted to .pdf to read soon and synthesise with the police document. I will probably have a look at the standards too - one of my clients has a lot of dealings with SAI Global (they're audited and I know one of the auditors) so I may try to finagle a copy from them FOB.

 

I'm interested in the Theia Tech lens calculator but I have Java and scripting disabled on my rig (security) so it doesn't work on the PC. I might try the app on my wife's phone (android) - mine is a winphone, so no go there either. App it is.

 

Internal cameras no longer a go, after your helpful advice. No I don't want leakage onto the net, although I do know quite a bit about securing wireless etc. Thanks. Anyway, I have full alarms throughout.

 

Blurriness at night is no go as well. Therefore, higher shutter speed combined with external lighting will be necessary in order to capture non-blurred, recognisable facial features, clothing, vehicle details etc in the dead of night. Thanks for that lead too. White light will probably be best, it will deter and illuminate in natural colour rather than the green hues of IR reflectance.

 

No I didn't mean onboard camera recording. It was a question from a newbie, please forgive. I simply meant recording to some internal static hard drive with say 4TB capacity - but now I've thought about it, I would like that to be either supplanted by, or supplemented with, cloud storage. That can't be interfered with, Snowdon withstanding

 

Your recommendation regarding the downsides of domes taken. I will not use domes on your recommendation. What cameras are you using, if I may? You're a wealth of practical information.

 

Regarding AliExpress, can I enquire again please what cameras you are using? Obviously they meet all of your recommendations and observations, and that's good enough for me. I can then at least research them and determine whether they meet my requirements. I'll understand as well if you don't wish to disclose the type of camera - but perhaps a PM if security is an issue?

 

Snarkiness observation noted. I'm an old timer on usenet (not google groups, paid NSP's only) so I'm used to flame wars and all that crap. I too can understand the origin of the narkiness, but it takes an assumption in the first place, that I'm a cheapskate, which I'm not. Nor am I a bludger. More than happy to pay and I don't have a hard budget.

 

Do you have an opinion on cloud storage vs hard drive onsite?

 

Thanks anyhow mate, and I'm sorry I didn't get back to this thread in a more timely manner. I've been pretty busy (for a semi retired bloke) with work and family etc, but still no excuse.

 

Great advice and greatly appreciated.

[thang 0]

Sorry man - my post should have been addressed to SyconsciousAu - not SysconcsiousAu

[SyconsciousAu 0]

In response to the other narky bugger who blew his nose in my direction - mate, I'm not short of a quid and therefore don't need cheap advice in order to save money. I have a passion for understanding tech, and that's what I wanted - not your cheap or free advice. SO there ...

 

Careful. CCTV as a hobby can be more expensive than drugs

 

 

Blurriness at night is no go as well. Therefore, higher shutter speed combined with external lighting will be necessary in order to capture non-blurred, recognisable facial features, clothing, vehicle details etc in the dead of night. Thanks for that lead too. White light will probably be best, it will deter and illuminate in natural colour rather than the green hues of IR reflectance.

 

CCTV at night is actually black and white. If low light performance is your concern look carefully at low light performance figures for the cameras you are after. As a general rule more pixels reduces low light performance for a given sensor size. I say generally because the 2*42 series cameras from Hikvision have better low light performance than the 2*32 cameras despite being the same sensor size.

 

How they claim low light performance is important too. For example they may claim 0.1 lux at F1.4.

 

The next box will tell you that they fit the camera with an F2.0 lens which means your minimum light performance is now halved to 0.2 lux because the aperture on the lens is half that of the F1.4. They will usually also indicate if automatic gain correction is factored into that figure. Gain is like your ISO setting in photography. It increases sensitivity to light but increases noise in the image. If you reduce your gain to reduce noise in the image then your minimum illumination levels also go up.

 

Depending on your budget there are plenty of very nice low light cameras out there. Bosch make the king with their 5mp Dinion 8000MP Starlight but you can expect to pay close to $2000 US dollars per camera, lens and enclosure.

 

Hikvision make their dark fighter series which top out at 2mp but they are half the price per camera. They also make a dark fighter PTZ. Dahua makes a 2MP low light offering as well. There are plenty of camera manufacturers out there but you will keep hearing dahua and hikvision mentioned because they represent excellent value for money. After sales support is what you lose, but it sounds like you are tech savvy enough to muddle through any issues.

 

No I didn't mean onboard camera recording. It was a question from a newbie, please forgive. I simply meant recording to some internal static hard drive with say 4TB capacity - but now I've thought about it, I would like that to be either supplanted by, or supplemented with, cloud storage. That can't be interfered with, Snowdon withstanding

 

If you are on the NBN then you may have the upload speeds to send video off to the cloud in real time but you need to consider how much bandwidth you will chew up doing that. IP cameras at settings that will give you quality playback will send back data at 4 - 8 megabits per second, per camera. Higher resolution cameras need even higher bit rates. Sure you can send the sub stream to the cloud to reduce bandwidth but a D1 substream will have a fraction of the quality of the main stream. There is no point backing up video to the cloud if it isnt of a high enough resolution to be useful. The camera or NVR can email you a snapshot of what it sees on motion detection as well.

 

If you are worried about the NVR going missing there are several things you can do to reduce the chance of that happening, or reduce the impact if it does happen. First one is hide the NVR somewhere. Second one is bolt it into a locked rack mount that is bolted to the wall. Third is you can record to two separate and hidden locations on the same site so if they get one they may not get the other. Fourth is to use cameras with on board SD storage so unless they steal the camera they have not got all the footage.

 

I recommend having an NVR with the ability to do Raid 1, 5, or 6. If your only hard drive dies all your footage dies with it plus your NVR is dead until you get a replacement.

 

Regarding AliExpress, can I enquire again please what cameras you are using?

 

I've got a mix of Dahua and Hikvision cameras teamed up to a PC based NVR running Blue iris in raid.

 

I have to say i am very impressed with the Hikvision 2CD2332 cameras I have if you are looking for something that is halfway between a dome and a bullet. The downside is they have no onboard SD card. Lenses from 2.8 to 12mm are available. If you go box cameras budget for good glass as well. The difference between a cheap lens and a good one is remarkable.

 

Don't write off domes altogether. They have their issues but all cameras do. What a dome can give you is protection. If you have to hand a camera somewhere people can get at it then it is worth considering a vandal dome. Some people also find them more aesthetically pleasing. If you are using external white light you can get domes without IR on board which cures the bleed issue. IR bleed is only an issue when the camera is in black and white. If you intend to have enough light to record in colour your camera wont go into black and white.

 

What works for me and others may not work for you. What is best for you will vary with your needs and budget. It seems like you will do the research to identify exactly what you need to achieve your desired outcome. An all in a box set from deal extreme may end up meeting your needs exactly. I doubt that because it sounds like one of your needs is to have toys to tinker with.

 

Whatever you do build in some expansion room into your setup.

 

Do you have an opinion on cloud storage vs hard drive onsite?

 

For me cloud storage is something that should only be considered as a backup. An internet connection can be fickle.

 

 

 

greatly appreciated.

 

no worries at all.

[thang 0]

SyconsciousAu I never thanked you for your *extremely* useful advice. I was caught up in personal and other matters and while not an excuse is at least some sort of mitigation. So, thank you mate. I'm now going to embark on installation of two cameras and a DVR and rather than buy say a Swann 4x1 in a box, I'll look for Hikvision or similar and reduce the number of cams to 2 and see what happens. I need it in, up and working within the next 6 weeks.

 

I'll report back.

 

regards

[fran_mourato 0]

Thanks SysconsciousAu. Your Police Recommendations document is invaluable and well worth the read (and application). And yes, we Aussies do need to stick together

 

I live in quite a wealthy area, almost gated in some parts, and we don't appear to have the crime which is prevalent elsewhere (apart from a well known bikie who lives around the corner, or should I say, lived - he's doing 6 years in a far bigger house at the moment). By that, I mean practically every house, and there are only a few bungalows, is alarmed, and many residents are elderly and home all day, and as in most 2 storey neighbourhoods, most backyards are not entirely private. Our place has plenty of deadlocks, window and sliding door locks, gate locks and is alarmed with attentive neighbours and we haven't ever been burgled.

 

However we travel overseas a bit and wanted not to depend on other people looking at our place while away - we want a system which uploads to the cloud, only records when triggered and has resolution and robustness meeting the specs set out by the police in your document. We don't have a real budget, but can spend up to say $5K or so for a decent system - ie we're not bound to the systems from DX or similar, but if there *are* decent systems which can be purchased from HK (I use Deal Extreme a fair bit for other stuff) then why not?

 

In response to the other narky bugger who blew his nose in my direction - mate, I'm not short of a quid and therefore don't need cheap advice in order to save money. I have a passion for understanding tech, and that's what I wanted - not your cheap or free advice. SO there ...

 

 

 

Your assistance is invaluable and now that I have some time, I will take it from there. The web reference (http://cctvdesign.com.au/tutorials/cameras-choosing-resolution/surveillance-camera-comparison-parameters) I've just converted to .pdf to read soon and synthesise with the police document. I will probably have a look at the standards too - one of my clients has a lot of dealings with SAI Global (they're audited and I know one of the auditors) so I may try to finagle a copy from them FOB.

 

I'm interested in the Theia Tech lens calculator but I have Java and scripting disabled on my rig (security) so it doesn't work on the PC. I might try the app on my wife's phone (android) - mine is a winphone, so no go there either. App it is.

 

Internal cameras no longer a go, after your helpful advice. No I don't want leakage onto the net, although I do know quite a bit about securing wireless etc. Thanks. Anyway, I have full alarms throughout.

 

Blurriness at night is no go as well. Therefore, higher shutter speed combined with external lighting will be necessary in order to capture non-blurred, recognisable facial features, clothing, vehicle details etc in the dead of night. Thanks for that lead too. White light will probably be best, it will deter and illuminate in natural colour rather than the green hues of IR reflectance.

 

No I didn't mean onboard camera recording. It was a question from a newbie, please forgive. I simply meant recording to some internal static hard drive with say 4TB capacity - but now I've thought about it, I would like that to be either supplanted by, or supplemented with, cloud storage. That can't be interfered with, Snowdon withstanding

 

Your recommendation regarding the downsides of domes taken. I will not use domes on your recommendation. What cameras are you using, if I may? You're a wealth of practical information.

 

Regarding AliExpress, can I enquire again please what cameras you are using? Obviously they meet all of your recommendations and observations, and that's good enough for me. I can then at least research them and determine whether they meet my requirements. I'll understand as well if you don't wish to disclose the type of camera - but perhaps a PM if security is an issue?

 

Snarkiness observation noted. I'm an old timer on usenet (not google groups, paid NSP's only) so I'm used to flame wars and all that crap. I too can understand the origin of the narkiness, but it takes an assumption in the first place, that I'm a cheapskate, which I'm not. Nor am I a bludger. More than happy to pay and I don't have a hard budget.

 

Do you have an opinion on cloud storage vs hard drive onsite?

 

Thanks anyhow mate, and I'm sorry I didn't get back to this thread in a more timely manner. I've been pretty busy (for a semi retired bloke) with work and family etc, but still no excuse.

 

Great advice and greatly appreciated.

 

Might also be worth looking into installing some lights on a timer in your property as a deterrent when you're away. A house with curtains drawn and lights out is always going to be more attractive for any potential burglar! I read an article (http://www.hertsad.co.uk/property/the_leafy_suburbs_of_st_albans_may_seem_safe_but_what_should_you_do_if_you_re_burgled_1_4447524) that suggested visual security items are often the most effective. In fact, on another forum there was a guy who had kept his burglar alarm installed on the front of his property for years without ever replacing the batteries. He'd never been burgled....possibly by luck rather than judgement though!