Which system to go for IP vs TVI?

[bozman 0]

Hi newbie to this forum.

I am looking to get a surveillance system for a laundromat that is under renovation.

Outside there has been several instances of graffiti being sprayed on the walls.

My previous system was old and pretty much useless. Looking for a fresh new installed system.

Looks like I going for about a 10-12 camera install.

 

I've talked to one of the installers and he has pitched a TVI HD system because it is the least expensive in components and to install.

 

However having read this forum and talking to people the IP system I get the gist that it is more future proof and the trend is towards that.

 

From what I gather it is better networking since it is using the same networking cables as computer networks, and higher resolution camera.

 

However the disadvantage is that the system could lag especially if you use higher resolution camera especially 3MP and up.(The 3MP part is according to some online article that cited it as potentially slowing the system.) The installer that I talked to said that the higher bandwidth of even a 2MP cameras will cause it to lag.

 

The other disadvantage is the cost even though it seems the trend is the price is dropping but it still is somewhat more expensive than TVI.

 

Another is that the signal will not travel as long as TVI for the IP.

 

What are your recommendations TVI or IP?

 

I haven't gotten a clear picture of the threads that dealt with this question.

[Boogieman 1]

There is very little to no lag in ip...regardless, even if you had a 2 second lag, who cares, you dont need realtime monitoring...

IP will give you the most options an future expansion...Ethernet can be run 328 feet from the switch, I doubt you need longer runs than that. TVI is transitional technology meant to be used to replace older analog D1 systems while using the old cable.

If you end up going with TVI for cost purposes ask the installer to use ethernet with baluns so you can later upgrade to ip without rewiring. Make sure he uses quality copper cable not copper clad aluminum (cca) which is junk.

[SunnyKim 2]

Bozman,

I mostly agree to your understanding on TVI system and IP System. I would go for TVI system, because it is cheap, and cable length is not a issue. For those managers, IP system becomes tough and expensive to make realtime spot monitoring of 12 Cameras, with High Performance PC (Not free Software) or an expensive NVR. Cheap NVRs can not decompress more than Max 4 Channels, simultaenously for spot monitoring display.

[Boogieman 1]

Bozman,

I mostly agree to your understanding on TVI system and IP System. I would go for TVI system, because it is cheap, and cable length is not a issue. For those managers, IP system becomes tough and expensive to make realtime spot monitoring of 12 Cameras, with High Performance PC (Not free Software) or an expensive NVR. Cheap NVRs can not decompress more than Max 4 Channels, simultaenously for spot monitoring display.

None of this is true. IP systems are no tougher that dvr's.

Do you know what a laundromat is? not sure if they have those in china. 328 feet from the switch is not going to be an issue. As I showed you before a 250 dollar dahua NVR can display 16 simultaneous streams..In the US that is NOT expensive.

With IP, you easily hide the NVR if you wish, anywhere on the network, or use two in tandem with one as a backup. You dont have to homerun all the cables if doing so will be difficult. If you need a function that is not available on the NVR you can easily change over to pc based software with little trouble.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Guest

[bozman 0]

How much is the cost difference between TVI vs IP? What are the ranges of similarly configured systems?

[Boogieman 1]

How much is the cost difference between TVI vs IP? What are the ranges of similarly configured systems?

The actual parts cost will be about double for IP. Labor should be the same.

A 12 camera ip decent system with NVR and drive is about 2000. That is the cost of the system without install.

[bozman 0]

Thanks for the reply.

How common is it for NVR to have built in switches so you can avoid having to buy separate switches for all the camera ports?

 

Also another concern is the cable for outdoor cameras for IP, how durable are they exposed to the elements?

[Boogieman 1]

Thanks for the reply.

How common is it for NVR to have built in switches so you can avoid having to buy separate switches for all the camera ports?

 

Also another concern is the cable for outdoor cameras for IP, how durable are they exposed to the elements?

Cable should not be exposed anyway...

Switches are cheap... 45 for 4 port poe.. Nvrs with built in poe can be noisy... Please don't buy no name junk...

[bozman 0]

Thanks for the reply.

How common is it for NVR to have built in switches so you can avoid having to buy separate switches for all the camera ports?

 

Also another concern is the cable for outdoor cameras for IP, how durable are they exposed to the elements?

Cable should not be exposed anyway...

Switches are cheap... 45 for 4 port poe.. Nvrs with built in poe can be noisy... Please don't buy no name junk...

 

Talking of which, which brands do you suggest? And how noisy do those get?

[SunnyKim 2]

Bozman,

You may check out Costco under U$400, for either HDTVI or HDCVI. Ask Boogieman for the link. Big difference from IP systems of U$2000, which Boogieman stated. I do not think any standalone NVR can do decode and de-compresss 16 Ch X 1080PX 30FPS, simultaneously for spot monitoring needed for certain managers. I do not understand why some body has to push IP cameras. That's sad.

[Boogieman 1]

Bozman,

You may check out Costco under U$400, for either HDTVI or HDCVI. Ask Boogieman for the link. Big difference from IP systems of U$2000, which Boogieman stated. I do not think any standalone NVR can do decode and de-compresss 16 Ch X 1080PX 30FPS, simultaneously for spot monitoring needed for certain managers. I do not understand why some body has to push IP cameras. That's sad.

Its not sad, ip cameras have many advantages. Can you add a second hidden DVR to a TVI system? NOPE. Can you use switches with TVO so you dont need to homerun all cable which can be labor intensive. NOPE. Can you buy a TVI system with SD cards in the camera as backup. NOPE. Can you run poe and not have to mess with power supplies. NOPE. Can you easily swap to a new VMS? NOPE. Can you get more than 1080p with TVI. NOPE.

What is sad is someone like you pushing D1 low res junk all the way from china. At least here you are recommending HD, a big gold star for you.

Costco has 12 camera ip systems for as little as 1700. The 400 dollar systems are only 8 channel. If you want a decent quality 16ch tvi system you are paying 1000. So the difference is 700. That is nothing here in the US. We are not a third world country like most of china. We are willing to pay a bit more for a much better system. Please make sure to read the op. He needs at least 12 channels. I dont think you understand how spot monitoring works and why in the world you would need 1080p for each channel spot motoring "for certain managers". Sunnykim hopefully you will learn more about security cameras, particularly ip cameras which are new to you by reading my posts as its obvious your are a novice. A big clue to your ineptness is your need for 30fps, that is insane, its a laundromat not a casino. Learn a little before giving bad advice.

[SunnyKim 2]

Almost all Everybody likes to have 30FPS for recording and monitoring, but not possible due to limitations from Hardware or Software. They had to be forced to go for lower Frame Rate Per Second. And most moniotrs are limited to HD1080P. The image sensors used for 3MPs to 16MPs are the same for 720P or 1080P cameras. Why pay more? Those IP Cameras of 3MPs or above are presenting a lot challenges, HDD spaces, Software CPU, Harware Chipsets, Heats, Power Dissipations, etc. Why paying more. Simply go for HD-CVI/HD-TVI/HD-AHD. These cameras are as good as analog cameras in terms of your precious dollar.

[Boogieman 1]

Almost all Everybody likes to have 30FPS for recording and monitoring, but not possible due to limitations from Hardware or Software. They had to be forced to go for lower Frame Rate Per Second. And most moniotrs are limited to HD1080P. The image sensors used for 3MPs to 16MPs are the same for 720P or 1080P cameras. Why pay more? Those IP Cameras of 3MPs or above are presenting a lot challenges, HDD spaces, Software CPU, Harware Chipsets, Heats, Power Dissipations, etc. Why paying more. Simply go for HD-CVI/HD-TVI/HD-AHD. These cameras are as good as analog cameras in terms of your precious dollar.

Nope. 30fps is a complete waste. However, your statement that 30fps is not possible is a complete lie. Hikvision and dahua cameras easily do 30fps at 1080p no one is "forced to go for lower fps" (lie 1). Again you make to benefit from a camera higher than 1080p you need a better monitor. That is not true. The benefit is that you can ZOOM in after the fact. (lie 2).

The sensors are not the same.

Youtube does not lie. (lie 3)

What is the heat issue in the camera? What all cameras get warm even 720p. (lie 4). Hard drive space does NOT depend on resolution but rather bitrate. (lie 5). What is a software cpu? (lie 6). What is a "power dissipations"? (lie7)

So here we have 7 lies by sunnkim.

[SunnyKim 2]

Nope. 30fps is a complete waste. However, your statement that 30fps is not possible is a complete lie. Hikvision and dahua cameras easily do 30fps at 1080p no one is "forced to go for lower fps" (lie 1). Again you make to benefit from a camera higher than 1080p you need a better monitor. That is not true. The benefit is that you can ZOOM in after the fact. (lie 2).

The sensors are not the same.

Youtube does not lie. (lie 3)

What is the heat issue in the camera? What all cameras get warm even 720p. (lie 4). Hard drive space does NOT depend on resolution but rather bitrate. (lie 5). What is a software cpu? (lie 6). What is a "power dissipations"? (lie7)

So here we have 7 lies by sunnkim.

 

Cameras can be either set to 30FPS or 60 FPS, whatever max number, but the NVRs, in order to cover multi channels, have to be FPS limited Hardwarewise / or Softwarewise, a must limiting factor. Zoom in advantage? How good they could marginally be better, in spite of losing FPS. Mostly monitors would be limited to 1080P resolution, for a while. You better place cameras of good quality lens, at choke points.

The Higher FPS or Higher Clock Rate or Higher Processing leads to More Electrical Heating. Less Number Of Frames could need more compressional bits for its motion compensation, leading to loss of compression efficiency. Ask the specialist near you for more details in English. Software CPU means for PC Based NVR. All of These cannot be done without burning electrical power (Watts). As to Lie 3, so claimed, please Google OV16850 from omnivision, you would find the very same sensor are used for 720P cameras and for 16MP -Full UHD 60FPS cameras. I explained this fact almost 10 times already. Your youtube things, bra-brahs, are not convincing at all. If True, there would be not many TV makers, each claiming the best video quality among all other makers. Whys? There are no ojective criterion for video quality. Sorry any one of your claims can not be based on. You may ask for more knowledges from other specialists near you. They would help you to understand CCTV systems, Goods or Uglies or Bads.

[Boogieman 1]

Nope. 30fps is a complete waste. However, your statement that 30fps is not possible is a complete lie. Hikvision and dahua cameras easily do 30fps at 1080p no one is "forced to go for lower fps" (lie 1). Again you make to benefit from a camera higher than 1080p you need a better monitor. That is not true. The benefit is that you can ZOOM in after the fact. (lie 2).

The sensors are not the same.

Youtube does not lie. (lie 3)

What is the heat issue in the camera? What all cameras get warm even 720p. (lie 4). Hard drive space does NOT depend on resolution but rather bitrate. (lie 5). What is a software cpu? (lie 6). What is a "power dissipations"? (lie7)

So here we have 7 lies by sunnkim.

 

Cameras can be either set to 30FPS or 60 FPS, whatever max number, but the NVRs, in order to cover multi channels, have to be FPS limited Hardwarewise / or Softwarewise, a must limiting factor. Zoom in advantage? How good they could marginally be better, in spite of losing FPS. Mostly monitors would be limited to 1080P resolution, for a while. You better place cameras of good quality lens, at choke points.

The Higher FPS or Higher Clock Rate or Higher Processing leads to More Electrical Heating. Less Number Of Frames could need more compressional bits for its motion compensation, leading to loss of compression efficiency. Ask the specialist near you for more details in English. Software CPU means for PC Based NVR. All of These cannot be done without burning electrical power (Watts). As to Lie 3, so claimed, please Google OV16850 from omnivision, you would find the very same sensor are used for 720P cameras and for 16MP -Full UHD 60FPS cameras. I explained this fact almost 10 times already. Your youtube things, bra-brahs, are not convincing at all. If True, there would be not many TV makers, each claiming the best video quality among all other makers. Whys? There are no ojective criterion for video quality. Sorry any one of your claims can not be based on. You may ask for more knowledges from other specialists near you. They would help you to understand CCTV systems, Goods or Uglies or Bads.

NVR's are NOT limited to fps. No idea where you are getting this from. The limit is BITRATE. If you dont understand that being able to zoom in on an image or capture MORE area (for example the 3mp hik does not have more pixel per inch that a 1080p hik, BUT has more vertical field of view) is valuable then this discussion is over. The 4mp hikvision DOES have a noticeable increase in pixel density compared to the 2mp. Who said anything about software based vms? In the US we has intel haswell and now skylake processors that are VERY efficient. We can run many cameras on cheap efficient systems. Ok so you want us to ignore what we SEE with our own eyes when we compare 720p video to 1080p AND to ignore the youtube video. HOW DUMB do you think Americans are? You can no longer scam us all the way from China. It is evident from your statements that you know nothing about surveillance cameras. You can attack me in every thread, I will post OBJECTIVE evidence via youtube then let the OP decide whether to trust a china scammer or the hundreds of youtube videos available. Hmmmmm

[bozman 0]

What's with the bandwidth issue with IP system? The installer that I talked to mentioned it and said he would have to go from 2MP cameras down to 1MP cameras because of bandwidth with IP system.

[Boogieman 1]

What's with the bandwidth issue with IP system? The installer that I talked to mentioned it and said he would have to go from 2MP cameras down to 1MP cameras because of bandwidth with IP system.

The installer does not know what he is talking about...there is no issue..he is either trying to use a cheap NVR that has limited bandwidth and is is lowering the camera bitrate (the resolution settings is irrelevant) OR doesnt know what he is doing...there is no reason a 16ch NVR cant handle 12 cameras at 1080p

[bozman 0]

What's with the bandwidth issue with IP system? The installer that I talked to mentioned it and said he would have to go from 2MP cameras down to 1MP cameras because of bandwidth with IP system.

The installer does not know what he is talking about...there is no issue..he is either trying to use a cheap NVR that has limited bandwidth and is is lowering the camera bitrate (the resolution settings is irrelevant) OR doesnt know what he is doing...there is no reason a 16ch NVR cant handle 12 cameras at 1080p

 

I've seen this bandwidth thing being mention on this forum, but I find the explanation a bit lacking in detail as to why it is a nonissue.

[Boogieman 1]

What's with the bandwidth issue with IP system? The installer that I talked to mentioned it and said he would have to go from 2MP cameras down to 1MP cameras because of bandwidth with IP system.

The installer does not know what he is talking about...there is no issue..he is either trying to use a cheap NVR that has limited bandwidth and is is lowering the camera bitrate (the resolution settings is irrelevant) OR doesnt know what he is doing...there is no reason a 16ch NVR cant handle 12 cameras at 1080p

 

I've seen this bandwidth thing being mention on this forum, but I find the explanation a bit lacking in detail as to why it is a nonissue.

You need to explain what you mean by bandwidth and what you mean by issue?

Lets flip it around. Why should it be an issue? and how does reducing the resolution have any effect on the issue.

Any half decent 16ch NVR has enough bandwidth to hand 12 cameras at 4096kbps..bit rate is the relevant factor NOT resolution.

[bozman 0]

That's part of the problem with the terms thrown around and this being brought up. I'm guessing it's probably the amount of data when it comes to bandwidth.

[tomcctv 187]

That's part of the problem with the terms thrown around and this being brought up. I'm guessing it's probably the amount of data when it comes to bandwidth.

 

 

Hi. At the end of the day both systems can do the job yes on type is a little more expensive than the other

 

Will your laundromat be staffed all the time ?

Do you have a secure room to lock equipment

[Boogieman 1]

That's part of the problem with the terms thrown around and this being brought up. I'm guessing it's probably the amount of data when it comes to bandwidth.

Again that is meaningless. Is he saying you NVR cant handle the data from the cameras? or the network cannot handle it?

Many folks misunderstand IP and think that it affects the network bandwidth when this is not the case if the cable is home run to the NVR or if the switch is connected to the NVR..

[bozman 0]

Network bandwidth. That's what he is saying.

[Boogieman 1]

Network bandwidth. That's what he is saying.

Then he doesnt know what hes talking about. If he homeruns the cable to the NVR, the only time it uses the network (other than the one created by the nvr) is when you are remote viewing. The bandwidth used for remote viewing with be EXACTLY the same for ip or tvi, 720p or 4mp, you can set the remote viewing bandwidth cap and resolution in the NVR.

[bozman 0]

That's part of the problem with the terms thrown around and this being brought up. I'm guessing it's probably the amount of data when it comes to bandwidth.

 

 

Hi. At the end of the day both systems can do the job yes on type is a little more expensive than the other

 

Will your laundromat be staffed all the time ?

Do you have a secure room to lock equipment

 

It will be staffed and yes there will be a secure room.