Need help selecting video proposal. Please give your input.

Further to my original post here:

http://www.cctvforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=9876

Attached are the 3 web based video surveillance proposals we have received. As we have very little knowledge on these systems, your review and recommendations is very much appreciated.

* Quote I - 8 or 9 cams no monthly fees - topica cams - 3 yr. warranty only, 3 yr. support to our school only (not to users). Dell Desktop/Geovision system.

http://home.earthlink.net/~dt2004/images/iquote-8or9camera.gif

* Quote V - 9 cams $200 monthly fee (may nego. slightly) - Ongoing warranty and limited direct support to users - software upgrades included. Embedded, Stand alone DVR.

http://home.earthlink.net/~dt2004/images/vquote-9camera.jpg

* Quote W - 8 cams $100 monthly fee - no warranty - full direct support line for users, software upgrades. Dell Server - Linux based DVR.

http://home.earthlink.net/~dt2004/images/wquote-8camera.gif

**polls close in 3 days.

[edit by mod-rk updated links]

P.S. Deciding one one of these is my weekend project. My deadline is Mon/Tues then we need to go with a company. So please reccomend and vote. Thanks!

Just a quick look, the first PC one, system is old school, 1.6 800FSB, 1GB DDR 2 and 160GB .. not good enough for what is out there now .. average system is now 2.4-2.6 Core 2 Duo, 2GB DDR2-667/800, and at least a 500GB Hard Drive. Cameras seem like budget OEM and a Budget OEM Camera Power Supply (as it is a 9 channel). If you are on a strict budget then that would be okay.

2nd one, looks like it is 2 Video Servers, not a DVR; may want to clarify that one. Cameras using a 16 channel 24VAC Power Supply, seems like although they also seem to be OEM, no known brand name, at least they might be decent enough quality.

3rd one looks like a Linux system, no comment, other than support and maintenance will be your main concern, as like mentioned it would have to be direct and dependant on how good their service department is. No idea on the cameras as I cant see them listed, at least with a quick glance.

Perhaps someone else will be able to look at it closer and also give their views. Also, I would not be using a Dell for a Geovision system, but to each their own.

Rory

Personally, I would ask them for:

1, The brandnames of the cameras.

2, Still image samples recorded by the systems they quoted, or more realistically ask to log-in to one of their existing systems with similar specifications.

3, The frames per second available to each user.

As a parent subscribing to this system, I would want to know that recorded video would be available in case of an accident or crime. Confirm that those systems can record locally for 30 days (for evidence collection).

The Geovision quote is capable of this if he adds a 500GB hard drive.

I can't say I'd vote for any of them.

1. Having used both 12 volt DC and 24 volt AC cameras, I am more impressed by the 24 VAC. In my opinion, they tend to be better. I've had more 12 volt cameras crap out on me than 24. Everyone has their own opinions however.

2. A Geovision system is great. I have one. But, I also have a 250GB HD in an old 1.8 Ghz tower. I have it set on motion only, and I get about a week's retention (with motion events occuring during 8am-10pm), and thats with four cameras. You will need a lot more space than 160GB, and for 9 cameras, you'll want more along the lines that Rory mentioned, 2.4+Ghz.

3. I am not sure you need someone (company) to log in and be sure it works daily. Sounds to me like someone is playing on ignorance. If you can run your business, you can run a DVR. It's not a nuclear bomb, you're not going to break it by pushing the wrong button. You might reformat it, but it'll ask you first if you really want to do to that. In the setup menus you can setup remote monitoring, passwords, etc. You can create different user levels on Geovision. So you could give all the parents a generic user/pass, and you can decide what they can do (cameras to monitor, cameras to look up video, etc).

Rory:

The first company said that they will pass the PC cost to me, so it is dependent on how much we wish to spend. We were thinking Dell Vostro 200 since you can get one with monitor for approximately $400-$500 bucks. I have viewed [siSoft Sandra] benchmarks between 1.6ghz Intel DualCore quoted and the base level Intel Core 2 Duo, and the differences in various computation times was small. Our need for recording and looping is at 2 weeks at a time, so I thought the 160gb should be fine. Cameras are Topica [they are a distributor them]. I can ask for another brand - we prefer unobtrusive ones like dome cameras - please suggest another brand that is not too much. 2nd one will be able to record, but i do know that company uses stand alone (non-pc based) systems. Cameras are JVC RDX cameras (box). He says they offer better quality for the price. We prefer domes for aesthetics. 3rd one has the best references for our business at hand - they specialize in daycare web surveillance for parents. The 2nd quote and 3rd quote however have monthly fees, which adds up pretty quick over the years. I ran some calculations and we would be near $19,000 in 3 years for a system that had $8k in hardware and installation. This will keep adding over the years, so the first quote was a bit attractive since we are done paying for it after install. I figure it would be more cost effective to pay for maintenance on a need basis rather than to sign a monthly agreement. The 3rd proposal is a Dell server, running Linux, and, although they won't divulge their DVR system supplier, I believe they use Axxis (sp?) technologies. Indoor cams are www[dot]vitekcctv[dot]com/SpecSheets/VTD-C410_CMYK.pdf, outdoor (1) cam is an everfocus EHD350. I did speak with references for the first company (using Dell desktop and Geovision), and they have not had problems nd they are evening using XP Home (not Pro).

Photosys: I have spec'd the cameras in the above para. I have seen demos for all of them. They all look the same, all seem to be in the 3-5 fps range. The 3rd company has really emphasized to us the need for these systems to be able to handle the unique requirement to us, that it should handle multiple users effectively. The first two don't tout that need as much - do you guys feel this is a definite concern for our application? The way I look at it, the $100-$200 a month we save if we DONT go for proposals 2 or 3, we can put towards a T1 line bundle (some run like $400 a month with 3-4 phone lines included). If we do keep the monthly fee, we won't be able to budget for a T1, and will be stuck with our existing DSL line with 768k up.

UMDRanger: Do cameras really 'crap out' a lot? Is there a price difference between the 12VDC and the 24VAC cams? Is it one of those situations where it is better to get cheaper cameras so that if they crap out we can replace them, or spend more upfront on cams? I do know the first installer mentioned that he will put fuse boxes at each camera so that if there is a surge in voltage, we can replace the fuse (i think that's what he was trying to say). Companies 2 and 3 have that level of support, their ongoing maintenance monthly fee (which, again, really adds up over time) takes care of that. I have spoken with end users though, who state that their systems (even dell desktop systems with xp home) run for many months and MAY require an occasional simple reboot.

I should also mention that the first one (w/o the monthly fee). typically includes a 1 yr warranty. He made it a 3 yr warranty per our request. He said that if we go back to 1 yr warranty, we would save appx $500. I should also mention that we will be doing this for multiple schools, so we want to really make the right decision on this one. Whatever prices you see here, multiply by 3 for 3 locations. Finally, proposals 2 and 3 also include some basic website assistance. Both of them are catered more towards daycares, whereas the first company puts them in hotels, convenience stores, etc.

Where do you guys see this pricing stand? High? Moderate? or Low? Which one seems like the best deal? Thanks!

Forget SiSoft and any other benchmark software, it is much slower. Another thing with the Core 2's is they arent working at full throttle all the time. Ive used the 1.73, the 2.4 and the 2.6 so far .. 2.4-- 2.6 not a huge difference, but there still is a difference. The 2.4 runs a t 1.6 when it doesnt need all the speed (which unfortunately Windows doesnt seem to always know the diff), the 2.6 around 2.0. You can change that in the Bios sometimes, but it doesnt always work without actually overclocking. Basically, ignore all reviews on the internet as those are for overclockers and that cannot (should not) be done for a DVR.

Anyway, lets put it this way, its $129 for the 2.0 or its $200 for the 2.6, such a small diff in price for a huge jump in speed. Ofcourse Geo will work on a 2.4 Celeron but then thats not the point. If anything though, one would get the 2.0 800FSB if on a budget, not the 1.6. Remember CPU prices have changed over the past month with new CPUs released so that quote might already be old

Also Geo is very memory intensive, especially the latest version, its just $35 more for another 1GB.

You really dont want a budget PC for a DVR, you have to remember it needs to run 24/7, the motherboards they use in those budget ones are not good, the power supplies are extra generic, and the list goes on. Dont get me wrong, you CAN do it, at least with certain Geovision cards (not the combo cards though), but there's no promise that it will be stable, not to mention you need an Intel Chipset.

Anyway, hope this clears it up a little, you can use a budget PC, but the question you have to ask is, are you really on a very low budget, and how important is this security system to your company? For $100-200 more you could have a high end fast PC as well.

As to storage, $40 diff from a 160 to a 500Gb right now.

Please note these are all retail prices im listing.

Rory

I work in retail loss prevention, and used to install with a very sucsessful alarm/cctv/access contol company.

We used Gantz cameras which were able to accept either 12 or 24 volts. In 99% of the installs we went with 24 AC.

In my loss prevention job I have four 12 volt chip cameras. One has failed in the last year. I have purchased a few 12 volt cameras, and have had two fail. And I bought a lot of used cameras on ebay a year ago. All the 24 AC worked, the 12 volt did not. I just have had bad luck with 12 volt cameras. I would seriously consider spending the extra money up front and buying a camera that has the specs you need, and is less likely to need to be replaced. 24 AC power supplies (with the mutiple channels) are also fused.

Likewise my Geovision system with 1.8 Ghz and some 584 mb of RAM needs to be rebooted every few days or else it tends to lag and lock up. Definately back Rory's advice of getting a higher preforming PC for the DVR.

Rory: Thanks for the advice regarding the PC configuration. If stability is an issue, a server running Linux OS will almost always beat a desktop running a microsoft OS, so perhaps we should consider that. I don't know how compatible Geovision is with Linux though?? I have been building PCs for about 16 years. I'm 29 now, for computer ppl everyone had favorites, but Asus always seemed maintain a general image of producing some of the most all around reliable mobos. Mushkin memory, and intel cpu (and good cooling very imp!), Antec power supply. I would have built it myself if I had the time to get all the parts together and do it, but i'd rather probably just by a pre made server if stability is such an issue. Lets take out the PC's specs for a second though, proposals 1 and 3 are the PC based systems, and they don't make the PC's so thats a moot point in deciding who we go with. What did you think of the 3 companies proposals?

As far as cameras, i think any of the companies will be able to get most any brand. I dont think any of them want to lose a job just because it wasn't their preferred video camera vendor if we specify a particular brand.

The stability issue is not OS related in this case, well not really anyway. Basically think of it like a Mac, its mostly hardware and driver related. For example, for at least the GV650's and up, can only use Intel Chipsets. Can really use any motherboard you like, but we know the $40 Biostar is kind of cutting it a little too short, especially when for $30 more you can get an Asus or GigaByte. One could actually build a PC for $170 retail to run a GV250 card, but then its a budget DVR and like any budget DVR, stand alone or windows based, can have its share of issues.

Stability is also in the DVR software code, there are many embedded linux DVRs that crash or freeze up alot, poor code mostly, some just bad drivers. Same goes for PC based windows units.

Geo doesnt work on Linux natively, not sure if it will work with Wine or not though. Most Linux based (non embedded), dont typically have the features of the Windows based, but that will change over time.

Figure in 48 hours to build and test for a DVR.

Now, back to the question, I would ask to see some video examples of the cameras listed. They all seem to be OEM. Also, dont be surprised if after reading this forum for a few days, that you might know more than them. There are many start ups, and many just do it as its something to do, and rely on distributors to sell them the product, without getting actively involved in trying different products. In fact many companies will only know the OEM products they sell, and not know what a Sanyo Pan Focus is or a Panasonic SD3, or an EX82. Another thing to consider, if the company does not know the camera that you want, they may not have used it before, and therefore it may not end up being setup properly - cameras are not typically just plug and play, contrary to popular belief.

No images in the quotes leads me to believe they are either not that interested in the job or its "just another job", they are not proud of the products they have used in the past, or this may be their first job - ofcourse I could be wrong. After all this is a Video quote.

Rory

Rory:

Where do you guys see this pricing stand? High? Moderate? or Low? Which one seems like the best deal? Thanks!

Low, budget level.

If you know of any other schools doing the same thing in your area, perhaps ask them what systems they are using.

Most DVRs, at least PC based, will allow you to set as many users as you like, the rest will depend on the upload bandwidth.

thanks again for spending the time to respond. this is a big investement for us.

I have contacted 2 other schools. Proposal W, with the $100 monthly rate and Proposal V, with the $200 monthly rate have good reviews, but I am hesitant in getting stuck in a monthly contract deal - like mentioned before, that stuff REALLY ads up over the years.

I would ideally like to get a one time purchase product that I can setup initally without being subject to recurring fees, even if it costs a bit more.

Rory:

Where do you guys see this pricing stand? High? Moderate? or Low? Which one seems like the best deal? Thanks!

 

Low, budget level.

 

If you know of any other schools doing the same thing in your area, perhaps ask them what systems they are using.

 

Most DVRs, at least PC based, will allow you to set as many users as you like, the rest will depend on the upload bandwidth.

Then start looking at more providers.

Yep, personally I wouldnt be into the whole monthly thing either, seems its pretty popular in the US though .. not so much here.

Since you have some experience with PCs, you could just about do the DVR side yourself. There isnt anything magic about it, the manufacturers of the DVR/Card or software developers already did all the work. It will be one simple setting to enable the number of users and you can also add/remove users.

Still need to do the cameras though. There are alot of installers on this forum, perhaps someone will be in your local.

I have spent many hours on the internet looking for providers, and it appears that none that specialize in schools have a one time fee and do not have those monthly fees.

Then start looking at more providers.

I don't understand why they need to be experienced in schools. Experience in CCTV is good enough, be it a school, bar, store, home; the goals and camera views are usually the same.

Face shots at choke points and critical points (entrances and registers, sensative areas) and wide views of rooms.

I'd look to see if someone from this forum is in your area. They may be able to give you a better deal on the camera side.

One company (proposal W) has really emphasized to us that handling multiple simultaneous logons well is something that companies that do not properly understand the school/childcare market fail to do.

I don't know if this is just marketing, or if there is truth to it.

I don't understand why they need to be experienced in schools. Experience in CCTV is good enough, be it a school, bar, store, home; the goals and camera views are usually the same.

 

Face shots at choke points and critical points (entrances and registers, sensative areas) and wide views of rooms.

 

I'd look to see if someone from this forum is in your area. They may be able to give you a better deal on the camera side.

One company (proposal W) has really emphasized to us that handling multiple simultaneous logons well is something that companies that do not properly understand the school/childcare market fail to do.

 

I don't know if this is just marketing, or if there is truth to it.

Nope it's legit, few can handle this properly.

I still don't like their proposal but they are correct in that aspect, if flat out will not work with a normal networked DVR. You will have to do authentication and streaming remotely.

Thanks for the quick reply. I don't know if this would be an accurate simulation of real life, but I did have the Geovision guy logon to a convenience store they had installed at. Then I asked another one of our school locations to logon from their end. Then I had 5-6 computers log on at our school, all pulling the live video from this convenience store.

I do not know how accurate that might be though, because the 5-6 computers at our location were using the same internet connection, I don't know if it would really slow it down as much as 5-6 connections at different locations with different internet connections.

One company (proposal W) has really emphasized to us that handling multiple simultaneous logons well is something that companies that do not properly understand the school/childcare market fail to do.

 

I don't know if this is just marketing, or if there is truth to it.

 

Nope it's legit, few can handle this properly.

 

I still don't like their proposal but they are correct in that aspect, if flat out will not work with a normal networked DVR. You will have to do authentication and streaming remotely.

5-6 is radically different from 100-120.

Yes activity at the school is totally different there, it might work if you can get the parents to come to you. Kinda doubt that one though...

That monthly fee is the killing point. No matter what spend a grand more but as long as you dont have monthly fees your good. Also what do they charge you monthly fees for the remote view? If so cant you just do remote view yourself VIA cable or DSL internet?

*EDIT*

I only read like 4 posts but if your having about 3 people remote view at once and have a 1MB uplink you should be good, I mean thats roughly 333 KBPS per user and that should be enough to transmit from 9 cameras correct?

It won't be 100-120 at any one given time. It may be 20.

I did not understand your second and 3rd sentence..

thx

5-6 is radically different from 100-120.

 

Yes activity at the school is totally different there, it might work if you can get the parents to come to you. Kinda doubt that one though...

Ditto on the monthly fee.

Thats why i'm on here trying to find a solution without one of these monthly fees.

That monthly fee is the killing point. No matter what spend a grand more but as long as you dont have monthly fees your good. Also what do they charge you monthly fees for the remote view? If so cant you just do remote view yourself VIA cable or DSL internet?

 

*EDIT*

I only read like 4 posts but if your having about 3 people remote view at once and have a 1MB uplink you should be good, I mean thats roughly 333 KBPS per user and that should be enough to transmit from 9 cameras correct?

Those prices seem very low to me.

No Votes?

Okay, even if you guys hate the proposals, which is the one you hate the LEAST???

It may be 20.

Well thats not as bad still would be better if served to the public remotely.

I did not understand your second and 3rd sentence..

thx

 

5-6 is radically different from 100-120.

 

Yes activity at the school is totally different there, it might work if you can get the parents to come to you. Kinda doubt that one though...

Many routers will reroute traffic on the LAN making odd requests back onto the LAN. As such just because you enter a domain to access all that may happen is DNS resolve on the internet and the rest of the requests never leave your LAN. A DVR with a base 100 connection can support many clients like that. It's the uploading it to the net that is going to kill ya.

Thats why if the parents came to the daycare it would be no issue. However that totally defeats the purpose remote viewing, if they are already there they could just watch. As such nobody will.