500+ Runs for each Cam Install ISsues

[streethacker 0]

I have 4 Cams each cam is about 500ft a run for each. I bought a 8 channel 24VAC 8 amp Power Supply, RG59 Cable, and 4 ECL-640 Eclipse Cameras.. If I hook up the cameras indavidualy they work fine as soon as I hook in anohter camera to the DVR i get a white Scrolling line the more I hook in the worse it gets especially @ night its even worse... I have spoken with some people and they say its because of noise from other electrical wires. BUT the runs are going underground on a farm no electrical wires are even close to it. Im thinking its the power supply but from what Ive read and been told the 24VAC 8AMP Power SUpply should be fine with 500FT of cable going to each camera? I bought a wall plug AC power supply and hooked one cameras power up to that and the other to my main power supply and the lines did not show up... Any suggestions would be great THANKS IN ADVANCE!!!

[blake 0]

You should try a power conditioner.A lot of residential power is "dirty".Try cleaning your ac power with a power conditioner.

[rory 0]

You could try an Isolated Power Supply, check Altronics resellers for an 8 or 16 channel Isolated Fused 24VAC power supply. That helped me in the past.

 

Basically if you power them all individually and the problem goes away, then you need it isolated, or it could just be a crappy 8 channel unit.

[VIP 0]

Line lock? Phase adjustment?

 

http://www.fmsystems-inc.com/manuals/VTMTIPart.pdf

[tomcctv 187]

i would say your power supply 8 way 8 amp is only 1 amp per camera and over 500f that is not enough. you could install seperate power units. the camera you stated ECL-640 Eclipse will run 12v or 24v. i would go for 12v 5amp seperate power supplys

[VIP 0]

Oops...I think TomCCTV is on the right track.

 

What size (power) wire are you using? What is the voltage drop for 500' of 18/2? I had to run 12/2 on one particularly long run due to voltage drop.

 

Here are a couple calculators:

 

http://www.nooutage.com/vdrop.htm

 

http://www.jhlarson.com/ind_tables/volt/calc_voltdrop.htm

[rory 0]

Well the camera pulls 940ma according to the eclipse site, with IR on .. so perhaps .. but 500 really isnt that far for 18 g wire, and its probably only pulling 500ma without IR if that. If he is going to upgrade the power supply though I would recommend an isolated one at the same time. Just has to be special ordered in most cases. I would have thought he would already have checked the voltage though

[VIP 0]

Well the camera pulls 940ma according to the eclipse site, with IR on .. so perhaps .. but 500 really isnt that far for 18 g wire, and its probably only pulling 500ma without IR if that. If he is going to upgrade the power supply though I would recommend an isolated one at the same time. Just has to be special ordered in most cases. I would have thought he would already have checked the voltage though

 

Based on those numbers, voltage drop is -3.9v at the end of the run (16.3%) for a total of 20.1v at the camera. 5% voltage drop (or less) is the goal.

 

Bumping up the power supply isn't always a solution. You can only push so much water through a hose.

[blake 0]

What about placing a outdoor power supply at each camera?

[rory 0]

Based on those numbers, voltage drop is -3.9v at the end of the run (16.3%) for a total of 20.1v at the camera. 5% voltage drop (or less) is the goal.

 

Bumping up the power supply isn't always a solution. You can only push so much water through a hose.

 

I get 24V over 500' on 18g wire.

[scorpion 0]

I get 24V over 500' on 18g wire.

 

There should not be as much of a voltage drop compared to DC.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_Currents

 

With 24 volt AC, and using dual voltage cameras should work.

 

If at 500 feet the AC 24V drops to (what ever number) Volts AC then the camera should work. If it is as low as 14 volts the AC will be rectified, and it will act as a 12 volt camera.

 

What do you think?

[hardwired 0]

Based on those numbers, voltage drop is -3.9v at the end of the run (16.3%) for a total of 20.1v at the camera. 5% voltage drop (or less) is the goal.

 

Bumping up the power supply isn't always a solution. You can only push so much water through a hose.

 

I get 24V over 500' on 18g wire.

 

Are you sure you are testing under load at the far end? There has to be some degree of losses at that distance, but it will not show up unless under load.

 

And sometimes, bumping up the voltage IS the solution... That's why Altronix and other make power supplies with 24 and 28 volt taps...

 

I would NOT suggest 12 volt, your line losses will be twice as much as at 24 volt, as well as having more ground loop problems.

[Tailbone215 0]

And sometimes, bumping up the voltage IS the solution... That's why Altronix and other make power supplies with 24 and 28 volt taps...

 

I would NOT suggest 12 volt, your line losses will be twice as much as at 24 volt, as well as having more ground loop problems.

 

I second the recommendation of the Altronix with 28VAC tap. I'm using a 32-port Altronix and it is nice.

[rory 0]

Are you sure you are testing under load at the far end? There has to be some degree of losses at that distance, but it will not show up unless under load.

 

And sometimes, bumping up the voltage IS the solution... That's why Altronix and other make power supplies with 24 and 28 volt taps...

 

I would NOT suggest 12 volt, your line losses will be twice as much as at 24 volt, as well as having more ground loop problems.

 

Sure there is some loss, like 23.5 volts instead of 24 .. most 24vac cameras can work fine as low as 18 volts, some even less .. i typically use Altronics power supplies and 18awg wire and never had a problem, even with the EX82 cameras which draw alot, though those runs are only around 300'. I mean really over a couple hundred feet the video quality starts to drop also.

 

Back to the OP's post though, individual power supplies are fine according to him, so I still think it is more then likely an isolation issue with the power boards on those cameras. Once he gets an Altronics 24vac Isolated Fused power supply, that might fix the problem either way.

Edited October 11, 2009 by Guest

[streethacker 0]

Well I replaced the power supply with the same unit thinking it may be the power supply but still has the lines. Ive talked with there tech support they said 18g and 24VAC @ 1amp should be fine and that power supply should be fine but its still not working... I looked at that Vertiline8Di by altrnoix

 

Specs:

• 24VAC or 28VAC @ 8 amp total output current.

• 1 amp max per output.

• Eight ( electronically isolated PTC protected outputs.

• Selectable 115VAC 60 Hz/230VAC 50/60 Hz input.

• Eight ( individually selectable 24VAC or 28VAC

power outputs with OFF position.

• Eight ( power LED indicators.

• Surge suppression.

• Illuminated power disconnect circuit breaker with manual reset.

• IEC 320 - 3-wire grounded line cord (detachable).

• Removable terminal blocks with locking screw flange.

• Ease of installation saves time and eliminates costly labor.

• Units can be rack, wall or shelf mounted.

• Lifetime Warranty.

 

How does that sound and where can I buy one heh

[Soundy 1]

If I hook up the cameras indavidualy they work fine as soon as I hook in anohter camera to the DVR i get a white Scrolling line the more I hook in the worse it gets especially @ night its even worse...

 

This really sounds to me like a ground-loop issue, albeit one you'll normally just see with cheap 12VDC cameras that share a common ground between the power and video. How are these cameras mounted? Are any/all of them attached to metal? Is the DVR itself grounded? How about the power supply? You could try a ground lift on the DVR and/or power supply and see if that helps...

[streethacker 0]

Independent power supply's fixed the problem.. But it seems to me thats the cheap way out. I don't get why these cameras need to be isolated? we tested the voltage on the "non working power supply" at the end of the cam not under load and it showed 26VAC ...also we hooked up 1 500' run and a 3' run to the power supply and the lines still appeared? Is it possible i bought 2 bad supply's or r they just junk? Thanks in advanced!

[rory 0]

all cameras are identical?

Ive had brand new cameras come with bad power boards before, had to send all the cameras back to be replaced, nothing but lines. If the individual power supplies fixed it then the boards are probably not isolated or either bad or need to add an isolated power supply (or individual power supplies). Another thing if you have 2 other totally diff cameras then you could test those with the power supply you have.

[streethacker 0]

Rory all the cams are Identical....

 

you guys have been awesome better tech support then all of my distributors...Question is now is that my fault? should i have known to buy a isolated power supply? or is it because the guys house may have dirty power?.. Then again this is the power supply they sold me knowing i was doing 500ft runs, useing those cams, and said it was more then enough?.. I took all your advice's and bought a altronix ALTV248ULCBHI-UL which was the same price as the Eclipse Power Supply I got $126.. Here are the specs:

 

115VAC 50/60Hz, 3 amp input.

24VAC @ 12.5 amp total output current.

Eight ( electronically isolated PTC protected outputs rated @ 1.6 amp.

Illuminated Power Disconnect Circuit Breaker with manual reset.

Unit maintains camera synchronization.

Lifetime Warranty.UL Listed for Commercial CCTV Equipment (UL2044), CUL Listed - CSA Standard C22.2 No.1-98, Audio, Videoand Similar Equipment.File# E148639.

CE Approved.

 

I Hope i got the right one....

[Soundy 1]

Most of these power supplies are the same basic design: a big transformer feeding into a terminal strip, some with fuses inline with each output. Unless you get into something that adds substantial filtering, I don't think you'll see a difference.

 

Check my message again - it really sounds like your problem is related to grounding, especially since it disappears with individual transformers.

[scorpion 0]

I use Eclipse stuff, and I love em!

 

I am surprised that you are having problems!

 

I am wondering if these cameras are mounted to a metal building?

 

If so, are the camera mounts isolated from the metal creating the ground loop issue?

 

I have this problem in the commercial area where a business has two or more metal warehouse style buildings.

 

The DVR being at one building, and the cameras being on another building, and the "ground potential" between the two buildings create lines, or issues.

 

On Farms I usually see wooden buildings, and this would not create a ground loop issue.

 

What kind of buildings are you working with?

[streethacker 0]

The cams are mounted to a mettle bracket onto (wood) they are inside a bird house... The wire then goes down the wood post and goes underground into a conduit for a very long distance to the house (he lives on a barn) there are no other underground wires near by..Soundy the DVR is grounded (3 prong power plug)... the power supply is only a 2prong so i don't think its grounded?

[rory 0]

Not that it should matter so much in this instance, given the cameras you are using, but Eclipse power supplies arent the best. Ive used alot of them, and also had to replace alot of them with better brands like Altronics, though mostly due to low amp specs. I normally get the fused power supplies though. I still use the eclipse power supplies though for the budget jobs.