150 Cameras System

[hazim 0]

Dear,

 

I used to install analog and IP systems for up to 16 cameras. But for more cameras I can simply use 32-channel DVR and so on. I installed cameras about 250m far from the DVR using Cat-6 and passive video baluns.

 

No I have a project to study:

 

An institute with two buildings about 50 to 100m apart, both need about 150 cameras (indoor and outdoor). They need minimum price and not bad image quality.

 

I see this will be hard for analog, 150/32 means I need 5 x 32-channel DVRs, but I see available 960H 16-ch DVRs but almost all 32-ch DVRs are CIF and HD1, and of course I prefer 960H. So if I will use 16-ch DVRs I need about 10 ones. But could I connect them by network cable to network switches in both buildings, and connect both networks by means of access point, and let each of the two administrator offices in both buildings be able to watch the cameras using a CMS software? I think this wouldn't be that hard.

 

Now I'm thinking about IP cameras, it will be much easier for networking and for eliminating a lot lot lottt of cables. I use one single UTP cable for 4 analog cameras, so if each building have approx. 80 cameras then I will have 80/4=20 cables... not so bad but....

 

For IP cameras system I will have one 64-ch NVR in each building, this NVR's price as I checked is approx. double the price of 10 x 16-ch 960H DVRs. And for IP system I will have one switch in each floor, and will have one cable between each floor and the other (between 2 switches), and will have one cable connected down to the room where the NVR is, only one network cable, right?? I don't know how much data will this single cable handle... 64 cameras, say 1MP cameras... don't know... but if I did it like that, I will use good quality Cat-6 for sure.

 

So what do you think, and what do you suggest??

 

Please not that the exact number of cameras to be installed is unknown but consider 120 to 160.

[SunnyKim 2]

Hazim,

Can I ask where is the business located at?

[milkisbad 0]

I think you can find better NVR prices...64 ch NVR with RAID is only about 2k ...cheapest 16 ch DVR is 200.

 

For this new job I hope you will go with IP and run Cat6.

 

There's 32 ch DVR with 30 FPS/ch and WD1/ch, but I don't think its worth it. 32 ch NVR with 30 FPS/ch and 1.3mp/ch is cheaper than a 32 ch DVR for some reason (economy of scale?)

 

For your switches you should use gigabit POE switches.

[hazim 0]

Dear,

 

I'm located in Lebanon, in middle east, but I buy good quality and 2-years warranty products from China.

 

If I need to use 24-port gigabit POE switch in each floor, I may need 7 to 8 switches. Any idea about these switches' price? But why you suggest POE? you suggest using POE cameras?

 

Regards,

Hazim

[ssnapier 0]

If you are going to use IP cameras about 95% of them run on POE, so you only need a single cable to the camera. I am going to send you a private message with a point of contact that can probably help you quite a bit.

[hazim 0]

Thank you ssnapier.

 

Actually, I used to buy pan tilt p2p wifi IP cameras that support up to 32GB micro-sd for about 37$ only in China, with two years warranty.

So now I'm thinking about using these cameras or similar cameras and use powerful routers or some wifi solutions, thus eliminating a lot of cables and storage devices and hard disks... Also these cameras come with 2-way audio.

 

What do you think??

[tomcctv 187]

Thank you ssnapier.

 

Actually, I used to buy pan tilt p2p wifi IP cameras that support up to 32GB micro-sd for about 37$ only in China, with two years warranty.

So now I'm thinking about using these cameras or similar cameras and use powerful routers or some wifi solutions, thus eliminating a lot of cables and storage devices and hard disks... Also these cameras come with 2-way audio.

 

What do you think??

 

 

Think we are better knowing your budget.

 

If your looking at $37 cameras ..... Walk away from install .......it will cost you less in the end

[ssnapier 0]

Yeah I fully agree with TomCCCTV. This is an area where you very much get what you pay for. If you think that 2 year warranty is worth anything, I dare you to try and actually use it. You will spend weeks waiting for delivery and even more weeks waiting for support... that is a bad idea.

 

I offered you a solid solution, what you need to understand is that headaches and cost have an inverse relationship. Spending more up front leads to far less headaches, spend less up front gets you way more headaches for a very long time and you will either spend more money to fix it or give up and get nothing at all.

[hazim 0]

Yeah I fully agree with TomCCCTV. This is an area where you very much get what you pay for. If you think that 2 year warranty is worth anything, I dare you to try and actually use it. You will spend weeks waiting for delivery and even more weeks waiting for support... that is a bad idea.

 

I offered you a solid solution, what you need to understand is that headaches and cost have an inverse relationship. Spending more up front leads to far less headaches, spend less up front gets you way more headaches for a very long time and you will either spend more money to fix it or give up and get nothing at all.

 

I told you that I used to buy these cameras, and I see them work pretty well and they are so easy to install and very practical.

 

About weeks waiting for delivery, I have ordered several times from these cameras, my last order was 50pcs and was they were shipped to me after 2 days from payment, by express shipping I receive within 2-5 days.

 

About more weeks for support, after I did each of my previous orders of these cameras, the supplier's team keeps asking me whether I have received the shipment and several times I asked for technical help, they replied directly as they were online at working time. Also, out of about 90 cameras I have ordered till now, one had a problem, they asked me some questions about the problem and concluded that there is a fault in the motherboard of the camera, they send me two motherboards with my next order.

 

I don't agree that "headaches and cost have an inverse relationship", it's not right always.

In many cases, simple solutions with good quality products is much better and make no headaches as complicated and expensive solutions, whatever the quality is.

 

German CCTV products are very much expensive, mainly due to high labor fees and high various costs, in contrary with China.

 

In a previous project, I needed to install high-end IP cameras with very good night vision. I looked for German Grundig cameras, the maximum IR distance of the cameras I found is 2m, which doesn't fit my need. That camera's price is about 650$, and it 2MP has 3-9mm varifocal lens. I bought Chinese 2MP camera with 2.8-12mm varifocal lens, and night vision up to 70m using 3rd generation IR LED arrays. The camera's image is simply amazing at day&night, it's price is only 75$, and it's working well till now, and warranty is 2 years.

 

In this case, the 650$ camera would make a real headache, the 75$ camera was a real solution.

Just imagining that big difference in prices makes a headache .

 

I don't look for spending more money and buying the higher price products, but look for what really fit my need well and make sure quality is good, and also good prices.

 

If I neglect the price issue, I will not do that 150 cameras project, the institute is receiving many offers for this project, and will choose the offer with BEST PRICE and specs.

 

I have already lost several projects because I offer good quality and best specs (but "cheap Chinese), because others offered cheaper price but bad cameras. I will not install bad cameras, but will not neglect the price issue, otherwise I will not have work.

 

Regards,

Hazim

[hazim 0]

By the way, is this forum made for discussion in CCTV or sending customers to certain guys or maybe to do commissions....

[thewireguys 3]

By the way, is this forum made for discussion in CCTV or sending customers to certain guys or maybe to do commissions....

 

Got a link to these $37 cameras? What about some sample images and videos?

[hazim 0]

Make a look

 

 

The 37$ camera is 0.3MP, it has a good image in comparison with normal analog cameras. 1MP model price is about 50$. For the institute, the 0.3MP is ok. I can offer both models for them.

[tomcctv 187]

Make a look

 

 

The 37$ camera is 0.3MP, it has a good image in comparison with normal analog cameras. 1MP model price is about 50$. For the institute, the 0.3MP is ok. I can offer both models for them.

 

 

 

That is my point ...... Installing 100 / 150 of those cameras is going to make you loose much more money that you had to do install.

 

Ok you have 2 years warranty ......... You still have your time and you will have down time with that equipment.

 

 

This install is for a institution ...... What storage are you going to offer which good VMS WILL manage the system .

 

 

Nothing what am saying is to give you problems am just giving you good advice .

 

Use a good brand name products use a good software put in a deadicater network and you will save yourself money (not your customer YOU)

[thewireguys 3]

Those are cute toys.

 

How do you plan to manage 150 of them? What VMS solution do you plan on using with those cameras?

Edited May 24, 2014 by Guest

[ssnapier 0]

By the way, is this forum made for discussion in CCTV or sending customers to certain guys or maybe to do commissions....

 

This has nothing at all to do with commissions, I recommended a professional in your area that knows what he is doing. If you choose to go a different route that is fine by me. You have three very smart people in this discussion telling you that there will be major problems using that equipment on a large scale, but since you clearly know better than any of us... good luck.

[hazim 0]

You all just repeated your same idea in the last comments, and didn't analyze and criticize the content of my previous reply. To advice me, you should show me that the solution I suggested is not good because this and this... and criticize my point of view not say that camera is a toy and so...

[thewireguys 3]

The video you posted shows the camera being view from a smartphone.

 

So your plan is to have your customer log into each camera with their smartphone?

 

I did ask a question which you did not answer. What VMS solution do you plan to use with these 150 cameras?

[tomcctv 187]

We did ask your budget and which software you intend to use .

 

 

The cameras you have listed ......... Put it this way $37. Take retail margin off then sellers profit off and you will see true value of the camera is around $10

 

 

People are trying to help you ..... So try and explain another way

 

 

You have a customer ..... You agree a price ..... You install ........ You can grantee 5 to 10 of those cameras going down EACH DAY ......... What is your hourly rate ???? Much more than each camera ....... BUT first 12 months all costs are yours ........ An engineer there everyday for a year

[myiicu 0]

If you want a robust network, capable to handle additional cameras, and capable to handle additional cameras with more resolution in the future, stick to proven technologies that can handle the traffic and bandwidth.

 

SD card/edge based storage is not reliable and is not recommended for use as primary storage medium for images in large installations.

 

Reliable and dependable Wifi equipment requires a significant investment and budget.

 

 

 

How well does that $75 exterior camera handle bright sunlight? Low Light? Extreme heat/humity? Vandals?

[milkisbad 0]

Those $37 wifi IP ptz cameras look like Foscam ..

 

If you have to keep it at that low price you might have to go analog cameras + DVR instead.

[hazim 0]

thewireguys, no not smartphone, there is a free pc software that comes with the camera, can view up to 64 or 128 cameras. A PC with this software could be connected to a big display, and using a wireless mouse, everything should be ok.

 

tomcctv, I said that I need a good inexpensive solution.

About the 37$ camera, I buy it directly from the manufacturer, I'm a retailer.

According to previous projects, I'm sure that a single employee and I are able to install all 150 cameras in about three days, but even if it took a week, I have no problem.

I have installed many of these cameras before, and I'm able to install and setup a camera in 5 to 15 minutes at maximum.

 

myiicu, as I checked, that 75$ camera can handle extreme weather conditions. If it can't handle then the manufacturer wouldn't give a two years warranty, since they will loose a lot with repairing and replacing parts for free in these two years.

 

milkisbad, 37$ is the factory price. But still this camera is an option to study. I think I will install analog cameras, 700TVL or 800TVL CMOS camera fits the institute needs in most places, for some important places I may install 700TVL Sony Effio-E cameras, and 1200TVL Sony CMOS cameras for outdoor. This along with 16 or 32 channel DVRs in each floor, connected to a network switch and a PC with CMS will be fine as I expect, and cost effective.

 

I will not tell you the price of that 700TVL CMOS cameras so guys won't get stunned .

[tomcctv 187]

1200tvl cameras ...... $37 IP cameras

 

 

You may be a Retailer .........but not a installer .......

 

 

Yes you and your engineer can install in a few days ........ My point was $37 camera ........... If you have cameras going down ( as you will with what you posted)

 

 

It is basic business practice ......... Sending an engineer out to a camera that costs less than engineers time. Means your paying costs

[thewireguys 3]

Oh this gets even better... free Chinese vms software to go with 150 cameras.

 

Have you ever designed or completed a install this large before. Do you know the total bandwidth for all 150 cameras?

[hazim 0]

tomcctv, I'm a retailer and I'm an electronics engineer. I said that an employee/worker goes out with me to installation, maybe two ones. Here in my country, the daily wage of a general worker is 20$ to 30$, here it's not Canada, and he's not a engineer.

Yes I'm an installer, I have installed more than a hundred CCTV system within the past 3 years.

Could you tell me what's the problem with 1200TVL cameras?

 

thewireguys, no I didn't install such a large system before and this is why I did this thread in the forum. I don't have good knowledge about the bandwidth since I'm a bit new to IP cameras, but I think 0.3MP camera doesn't require high bandwidth. But anyway, it seems I'll go toward analog cameras as I said before. The customer's budget isn't that high for IP, and he had asked me for low price, and that he is receiving offers for the CCTV system from others.

 

Not all cheap Chinese products are bad, there in China the government supports the industry, cheap raw materials and cheap workers fees, in addition to the big competition between a lot of manufacturers, and as I told you before, I buy directly from manufacturers, thus I get that low prices. You could make a try and I can help you choose good Chinese suppliers, and check the quality by yourself.

[seeya1971 0]

at .3MP you would be able to get all cameras onto one NVR. Your PPF will not be anything to brag about, but I don't know the shots and assume short distance like 20 ft. depending on the coverage area, 1 2mp camera can replace 4 to 5 of those .3mp cameras and you will break even on the camera cost and have a better camera.