B&W low light camera

[Gator 0]

We had some vandalism recently, so have decided to step up home security. There have been some home invasions closer by as well. Now that I have a new Mossberg at hand, it's time to set up to a proper early warning system.

 

The most important feature of the video warning system is to provide early alert of approaching threats. Low false alarm rate is important. There will be too many false alarms from wildlife as it is.

 

 

Seeing recoginizable faces is less important than getting early warning with low false alarms. They will be identifiable if they ever enter our home later on.

 

Four or five years ago, I bought a Genwac 1/2" 902H Camera when someone else was casing the neighborhood. I used Gotcha video capture and a winnov A/V board for the dedictated PC system. It sort of met the requirement. I tried a super HAD from Supercircuits before buying the 902H. The PC-1xx (I forget the exact model now) HAD was pretty disappointing, so I sent it back. It looked like broad black crayon raster instead of an image. My capture software couldn't deal with that much noise.

 

The Genwac 902H is fuzzy but may be adequate ito cover one direction with 300 watts of lighting. I need something similar in another direction. I have two intersecting roads where intruders would likely enter, so that is where I want to focus my design. I'll be replacing the winnov single channel board with an Aver NV3000 four channel card. I expect to cover the front and rear doors with some sort of low light bullet cams lighted with motion detecting lights. I would like those adequate for recognizing faces, but they can be properly lighted.

 

The front will be covered with my 902H. I need another camera that will cover the side yard. Trespass would likely be from 400 foot distance with about 200 foot of property line.

 

I'm looking for advice on camera selection for the second low light camera and also for bullet cameras for the front and rear doors. I was considering the the KPC-S190SWX for the two bullets at the doors. I read a post here that the 190 kind of disappointed (didn't seem to really have super HAD performance). I really can't chose what to use for the long range camera facing the side either. I would prefer not to box up an indoor camera, but I have room if that's necessary. I will add some exterior lighting. I think lighting will be somewhat detering, in that it will encourage problems to visit neighbors first instead of starting here. Lighting seems essential, even with the Genwac 902H, so I've given up on covert detection.

 

I used X-10 devices in the past while out of town two months to run lighting and window blinds on a random schedule. I plan to bring them back out of storage and set them up again. I would like for the NV3000 card to send lighting commands to X-10 lighting modules. But it's been five years since I fooled with visual basic. Has anyone here used the Aver cards to send lighting commands via X-10? I know they have added a card that triggers commands on relay contacts.

 

I'm still reading the NV3000 manual while I wait for the card to arrive. I think I need their audio board to get relay contact outputs. That would waste the last precious PCI slot that could be better used for more cameras later on. What data is offered on the undocumented header pins? Can the NV3000 software launch a brief aplication that sends lighting commands to X-10?

 

Larry

[Lolo Wolf 0]

Larry, you are asking a lot for a bullet camera to do with those distances, decent lowlight BW on the doors with motion lighting is a good choice and then maybe concentrate on quality long distance cams D/N for your end of boundary to focus on the perimeter where you suspect entry will occur or as you stated "I have two intersecting roads where intruders would likely enter" If it is auto traffic in so far as early warning or alert to cars entering your drive I would suggest you consider direct burial motion devices with trigger to cam/dvr and audible warning inside the dwelling. Your outdoor lighting is key adding protection, a common thief often will break and enter after considering a dwelling is vacant, however home invasion is indeed a serious threat and records have shown many end with loss of life. Such an assault if it did occur may take place in the very early hours when you or loved ones are sleeping, by then the reaction time and use of deadly force to protect oneself dimishes rapidly. I understand your concern, its a good idea to monitor/record traffic and review often suspect autos that maybe setting up your property and looking for weakspots. With all the sophisticated gear today In so far as warning/alert/detection there is very little that can replace a well trained dog. A working dog who is run within the dwelling or outside within the property and sole purpose is to alert any trespass, not so much a attack dog like in the movies (hollywood nonsense) but a trained perimeter dog who will bark and take a agressive stance till the command is given to cease even if they are neutralized their last dying breathe will be to warn you. A dog or dogs like that will give you ample time to engage the suspects if you choose to do so with a firearm or perhaps give you a window to contact police and or seek a safe retreat. In regards to cams I have had excellent D/N results with Extreme, Panasonic, Sanyo and some of the higher end Nuvico bullets. Ive used some of the Aver 5000 cards in the past but primary installs now use dedicated DVR systems, perhaps others on the board could give you more insight on the X-10 set up with your card and bullet cams choices (I prefer box cams with enclosures)

[CollinR 0]

NV3000 can issue x10 command no troubles there.

 

Box cam and housing will be better then any bullet, well that and you can get low F lenses which you cannot for a bullet.

[Gator 0]

Wolf, you are right about a permiter alarm. I really need intrusion alert when someone sets foot on the property, not once they have arrived at the doors or windows. The problem is the cost and the cable installation. I looked at this approach first for several days last week. I didn't find any wireless photoelectric gear. I would have to install a lot of buried wiring and run many of the very best photoelectric beams. The boundries to be monitored are 350' for the shortest one and 750' for the longest. The ground isn't flat, so it would require more than four beams to be sure an intruder didn't pass beneath the beam. We're looking at over half a mile of trenched cable to do that.

 

When you say it would be asking a lot from bullets for that range, are you talking about the 400 foot distance? I am really only contemplating the bullets for the front and rear doors. Is the KPC-S190SWX bullet adequate for those two locations? Those locations would be lighted at night.

 

The more worrysome direction is the major roadway on the South property line along the side roadway. My concern is that an accomplice could drop people off at that roadside where they would walk onto the property in seclusion. There's traffic along that street, so a camera used to monitor that South boundry needs to be reasonably free from headlight glare issues, but it needs to be able to produce usable detection video with floodlighting. The Genwac isn't really good in that regard. Headlights appear like highway flares and somewhat fog the frames. This application is the camera I need advice selecting. I planned on mounting it outdoors in an enclosure, so a box camera would be just fine. I don't want to overspend on this. But spending too little and not solving the problem is worse.

[mikesus 0]

Be aware that cameras will not stop anyone.

 

 

They will hopefully record the necessary info to get the perp later.

 

 

This will be little consolation to your relatives at your funeral (if you are worried about home invasion, rapes, murders etc)

 

A surveillance system is just that, it watches.

 

An alarm system is a proactive device that will call the cops if a bad guy tries to gain entry.

 

You can even install Cellular dialers with backup, as well as pendent panic buttons.

 

Don't give yourself a false sense of security by adding cameras...

 

IF you are looking for a decent box day/night I purchased a Sanyo that I am not going to use as I got a couple of wv-cp484's. Its in the classifieds section if you are interested.

[CollinR 0]

Be aware that cameras will not stop anyone.

 

An alarm system is a proactive device that will call the cops if a bad guy tries to gain entry.

 

While I agree with your intent I don't agree with those 2 statements.

 

CCTV will stop a bunch of randoms, it's a fact that CCTV in use deters better/worse then Alarms seems to swing towards monitored alarms for B&E offenses. Vandalism I am sure swings to CCTV but I don't have a nice study on that.

 

In another study, the following question was asked of 589 convicted property offenders:

 

How effective is each of the following likely to be in preventing burglary, breaking and entering and grand theft?

 

0 - not effective 1 - somewhat effective 2 - very effective

 

Monitored burglar alarms[8] 1.51

Electronic sensors in windows 1.35

Closed circuit TV cameras in stores 1.31

Private security patrols 1.14

Dog in house 1.11

Weapons in home 1.10

Guardhouses protecting homes 1.07

Random police foot patrols 1.05

Better exterior lighting 1.02

"Neighborhood Watch" programs 0.98

Safes/strong boxes 0.83

Local burglar alarms 0.83

Deadbolt lock 0.79

Timed interior lights 0.78

 

 

I would also say they are equals in activity, Proactively both act as deterents CCTV can be obvious and alarms have signs, stickers and visible window switches. Similar also in reactively CCTV can alert and pass data just as an alarm, just wanting for an event to react to.

 

 

 

The problem you'll run into is most CCTV systems will false to the point you will no longer go check on it, especially from 400 yards out. The best option is a combination of dual technology motions and CCTV. You'll need to run wire and spend more $ but it'll work best for the least. In this case 1 good $600 dual technology or microwave motion could be installed to cover a pretty wide area between the home and the road. Maybe 6 and you can have ~100'-200' in 360*, it will find it's mark and can trip the cameras more effectively then motion detection in the video feed. Even compared to the advanced alarm settings on the NV3000/NV5000.

 

x10 sucks too, you might wish to use a more reliable protocol for this, something like UPB or ZWave.

[mikesus 0]

I think we are agreeing actually. One is good for one thing and the other for another. For true security it should be layered. The combination of CCTV and an effective alarm system is a great combination. Trying to do the job of one with the other isn't wise...

[Lolo Wolf 0]

Sir, there is no one for all solution for what you are trying to do, however a combination of technology and common sense will help in setting up a reasonable buffer in adding to the defense of your property and persons. Unless you are full time operating/monitoring your cctv system as far I am concerned it is all "after the fact" the question is the amount of time it would take to respond to any tresspass or breakin. The courts are filled with cases of people interacting with suspect breakins strongarm etc....and often they are the ones who get charged with a crime in use of deadly force, laws vary from state to state however you had better make damn sure that you understand all the rules for such action. In so far as the cameras for your long distance observation you are better off setting up a quality box cam with proper lens management and take the time to scope and set the view to where you can get a usable stable shot, this is not plug and play, time must be spent in your layout. The use of dedicated detectors as discussed is really a better solution to software driven motion detection, wildlife, wind etc can be very problematic, I only use software programs for indoor spaces. Yes the wire runs will be labor intesive as well the gear, there are systems wireless capable but more money and more tech... I agree with Collin R on many points he has raised but You really seem to very concerned about Home Invasion, if you have prior knowlege or substantal info expecting such a threat, do not rely on police response or any monitored burglar alarm to stop them to save your life. Property offenders, tresspass, vandalism, break and enter common burglary yes then I would agree with a full time monitored burglar system to aid in security and property loss. Ever wonder why most investigators review video after a crime (if one exsists) most response is after the fact rarely while the incident is going down unless a unit is nearby, and perps are long gone, criminal minds that involve themselves in home invasion are extremely dangerous these are people who no doubt will be armed and intent on using force, the actual storming of a door or entrance to a dwelling is in itself a violent act, we are not talking about "cat burglars" here. A hardening up of your property, doors, lights, create open space rid yourself of covered access shrubs, use low landscapes boulders/ditch drains to limit fast exits with auto etc.. In reading your post you seem to be more concerned of activity while you are in the dwelling as opposed to monitoring your property from afar, if this is the case then perhaps Outdoor D/N PTZ with alarm settings to a dedicated detector would be another choice. My own personal set up for my house and property ( I am in a very rual area) is a combination of hard wire detectors with trips to multiple PTZ and static cams as well all my cams are modulated throughout the home so at anytime any room can view. Its a mid sized acreage (relative to this area) close to fifty with three main access points, boundries are double sided cedar fence some areas 8ft tapering down to 6ft with a combination of traditional cattle fence, gated entry with tele control and three PTZs on 18ft timbers staggered within the property, gives me a comanding view of all entry points as well most of the tree stands and open meadows. I dont reside in a high crime area but I take security serious and no matter where you reside today a threat is possible. My set up and combination of my dogs well.... I sleep good at night. Mostly I catch people jacking elk/deer.

[Gator 0]

My priority is to obtain an early warning of intrusion onto the property when we are home. I already have a wired alarm with every door and window wired. That has passive IR in the front and glass break detectors in the back. The wired alarm is not much use because at best police response time would be twenty minutes after the fact.

 

The more recent threat is in the form of home invasions. In other communities, they enter when they believe people will be home, because the motive is a robbery inside the home rather than burglary when people are at work. Because it is gang activity, there are often violent consequences. Some of these are in broad daylight. They typically involve multiple perpetrators.

 

My goal is to harden my home security to make it an unattractive target compared with other less protected homes. I think a system that turns on more exterior lighting in response to intrustion on the property while alerting us of the threat would help quite a bit. Of course daytime lighting wouldn't be of any help. Obvious video cameras may be some deterent.

 

Sounding alarms once the home is entered is way too late. That won't stop a crime in progress. An alarm wouldn't stop a home invasion once it's started, regardless of how loud it is. An alarm sounded when the property line is crossed might deter somewhat. That would need to be a panic button arrangement because false alarms would otherwise be daily from wildlife.

 

Sounding alarms based on any sort of motion detection would be fraught with false alarms because so much wildlife here. Deer make their rounds through the yard every night. They walk right up to the living room window. I'm not too interested in documenting things after the fact. That would require off-site retention of the video, because that gear would likely be stolen long before police could respond. In this rural location, I don't have the internet bandwidth to send much video elsewhere.

 

The homes on this street are on five acres each. The land behind me is more than a hundred acres. Lighting is poor on the street with one lamp every 300 yards or so. In the last couple of years the county contructed a jail three miles away. A new community of homes was constructed near the jail in that vicinity. Those visiting friends in jail ride out here afterwards to see what they can get into. On the plus side, I have 150 to 400 foot of clear open space on all sides to my property lines. Warning of those lines being crossed would provide some time to prepare, lock family into a safe room, etc.

[Lolo Wolf 0]

Gator, sounds to me like you have a good handle on what needs to be done as well what to expect in the event of a actual home invasion. Vigilance on your part and after reading discription of property and the jail vicinity, 5ac isolation between neighbors etc. yes indeed a breeding ground for criminal activity not overlooking the chance of a jail break, it has been known to happen and documented. The safe room is a excellent idea and a plan that you instruct family members to follow for retreat. Such form of personal security may seem to others as overkill but seems reasonable to me given the circumstances.As you know the principle difference between a perimeter detection system and an intruder detection system, so we are back to the early outdoor detect system, and with a limited budget and not wanting to layout multiple wire runs, you would have to rely on the dual or microwave tech as Collin posted and even that is not cheap for a average homeowner. I have designed and installed some very expensive systems for large property owners, with gated access, some are working ranches some are vacant secondary homes for very wealthy clents, even fabbed up a multi directional traffic controller that would stop a large truck dead in its tracks for a client... When money is no object a lot can be done aside from the fact many of these folks also have live in security personel or private security tours but the bottom line is for you to set up as best you can a early dtect with audible warning so you have enough reaction time after evaluating the alarm/threat allowing ample time to take steps to secure your family. Concentrate on your areas of egress and weakness that you have surveyed Set up quality D/N box cams that will reach your threat, after setting up motion sensors as posted earlier. Layout layers of security. The new Mossberg is only as good as the hands it is in, and I cant stress enough the importance that family members learn how to use and handle a firearm if it is to be part of your security solution. A firearm can be a double edged sword, in a bad situation your own firearm can be turned on yourself, dependent on your family situation... mindful of small children etc.. for home defense some folks keep firearms in multiple locations throughout the dwelling, really from a legal standpoint its alway best to retreat if you can, the use of deadly force is the last resort. Good luck

[Gator 0]

I did some searching for dual technology motion detectors yesterday. Many seem set up for a unique vendor's digital communication protocal over the alarm system wires. If I can find some dual mode detectors that provide relay closure and have good false alarm rate, good distance, I can build a wireless system to outline my perimeter. I'm a retired engineer, so I know the electronics end of things. But since I was never in the security end of things, I'm not familiar with the available products. Specifications of "up to" have always meant to me "never more than". On cameras, there are contradictions of 0.003 lux in one spot on the advert vs 0.0003 somewhere else. Lux means nothing when the picture fills with flare from poor dynamic range.

 

I worked on the signals intelligence end of things and that's a quite different end of security. So if anyone can recommend dual technology motion detectors that aren't proprietary, I am open to suggestions. I would have to run these on battery power with solar charging. Burried wiring is pretty much out of the question. Wiring cost puts it out of reach, and fresh trenches leading to sensors ruins their utility anyway.

 

For the South facing camera, I am considering the Panasonic WV-CP484 with an enclosure. If I can do better detection with a black and white camera, I'm open to suggestions for B&W cameras as well. I need advice on lenses and filtering. I know a polarizing lens can make a huge difference recognizing things. This direction will be lighted with one or two 300 watt flood lights ant that boundry is 400 foot away. I don't care if cameras are obvious. That might even be of benefit. I found mike's example photo of the Cp-484 in low ambient here with it in color mode. I would like to see some low light examples. I have two PC33C color camers. They are 0.5 lux cameras, now discontinued. If a b&w camera would work better in low light along side of these, I can enclose the color cameras for daytime and another B&W camera for night.

 

Does the Panasonic camera automatically switch modes when ambient light drops? That wasn't clear to me from the data sheet. The biggest problem I am having with camera choice is that specifications don't match up to real applications. The Supercircuits PC-1xx I bought several years ago was really disappointing and the Genwac blew it away. The Genwac camera has serious flaws too. And I didn't need it's tiny size, but that's all I could find at the time. It can see in low light but produces a lot of noise that computers have trouble processing. And then I read here of an OEM failing to deliver the promised HAD sensor that was previously designed in. That is where folks here can be a great help. The Genwac was one of the better low light cameras when I bought it. It wasn't really a security camera though. It was more geared to being tiny. It suffers from severe dynamic range issues. Headlights look like road flares. I will post a photo when I am permitted on the forum. That flare and dynamic range problem obliterates even the make/model of cars passing by. The last phase of my project will be to capture license plates. That will all need to be solar powered because of where plates are straight ahead.

 

With a budget of $75-$200 for bullet cameras at my lighted entry doors, what would be a favorite choice? Since these would be lighted, these seem to be points where facial recognition would be important rather than lowest light.

Edited February 11, 2008 by Guest

[mikesus 0]

Does the Panasonic camera automatically switch modes when ambient light drops? That wasn't clear to me from the data sheet.

 

Yes, it has a few settings.

 

One is around 5 lux, the other is around 1 lux. You can also specify the amount of time that the light is above that level before it switches back so it doesn't hunt. There is a second setting for using IR lighting.

 

Hope that helps.

[rory 0]

a typical Day Night Camera will never see as much in low light as a BW only camera.

 

Check out the Exview BW box camera from GE, KTC-540E.

 

Exview is as low as they get for most normal applications, BUT, if you have tons of money to spend, check out the EM CCD cameras, they start around $5K though - however they still wont see in Pitch dark so in that case, check out the Extreme CCTV products. EM CCD does seem to provide much more low light sensitivity for color cameras, but I have never tested one myself, just saw Samsung Techwin has one on the market.

 

Other than EM CCD, ignore anything that claims less than 0.01 lux (and personally never tested any EM CCD so cant speak for that either). Sometimes the faceplate level will be 0.001 and perhaps some of the OEMs base their specs off that instead.

 

PS. SuperHad and Exview are different (is there such thing as Superhad Exview, no idea), SuperHad is better sensitivity than standard, but Exview is better than both. ALSO, depends on the camera and moreso price, as price dictates which type of SuperHad or Exview CCD they put in the camera, some are better than others, AND the camera itself has to have the features and be setup properly by the manufacturer in many cases, or it wont be able to take full advantage of the CCD it has. Case and point I have a lower res BW Exview bullet here, got a high res Exview bullet from KT&C yet side by side it does not come close to what the other one sees in low light - 2 different brands and different chips.

[Gator 0]

The WAT-902H, 1/2" B&W that I have for comparison is disappointing with it's behavior when cars drive by. I don't know if it is HAD or exview technology inside because that wasn't advertised. It was and still is in the $300 price range for a bare camera. So it's not WalMart bargain basement stuff. There is no way it would produce the license plate capture mike demonstrated from his PC-23 in another discussion here. I think that camera was $129 or so when I bought my PC-33C's, but I no longer have the catalog. My other basis of comparison are my PC-33C color cameras ($250 range four years ago) and two camcorders. One of my camcorders has "night shot". It's pretty unimpressive.

 

Extreme CCTV is well beyond what I can afford. At the other range of the market we tried a Harbor Freight camera that was supposed to have IR lighting. I thought maybe it might see someone four foot from the door. In dark, it could not produce an image at three feet. You get what you pay for or less. $30 bucks doesn't buy anything. Maybe I can buy a fresh 12v alarm battery with that refund.

 

If I go for a B&W box camera and enclose it in an outdoor box, what are good choices? The KTC-540E you mention says 0.01 lux. The Genwac listed 0.003 lux and it's disappointing. How do I sort out real world performance? I understand that exview sees better by two f-stops in darkness. But I don't read anything about the differences in dyanamic range. That seems to be pretty important. My 902H is horrible in that regard.

[rory 0]

The KTC540 will be 0.01 lux, and 0.001 lux faceplate sensitivity. Like mentioned many specs use the faceplate sensitivity instead.

 

With GE you can pretty much take them for their word, or specs, at least I have found with the Box cameras I have used from them - never used their 540 though, but have used their other exview color and day night exview ones - I would be confident in saying, it would produce as best as a camera will be able to, without additional lighting (or IR). They also handle up to 1100nm IR.

 

Also note the actual end result will depend on the lens used and its f-stop. Used F:0.95 lens with an Exview Color GE Box camera before and it was remarkable under almost no light - exview takes whatever available light there is in the video and spreads it over the entire video.

 

KTC-540E Specs:

0.001 lux (faceplate), 0.01 lux @ f1.2 (SAGC on, 30 IRE), 0 lux visible

light under IR illumination (730 – 1100 NM)

 

So you would want to use at least a F:0.95 F-stop lens to get the best sensitivity.

http://www.gesecurity.com/portal/site/GESecurity/menuitem.f76d98ccce4cabed5efa421766030730?selectedID=7686&seriesyn=true&seriesID=

(they have changed the camera look since I last checked though, specs seem the same)

Edited February 8, 2008 by Guest

[rory 0]

See this information on Faceplate Sensitivity:

 

"Some manufacturers specify camera sensitivity as that on the faceplate or sensor. In these cases use these ratios to convert to the light required on the lens. I.e. 1-lux faceplate sensitivity requires 10 lux at the scene with an f-1.4 lens, or 20 lux with an f-2.0 lens."

 

http://www.cctv-information.co.uk/cgi-bin/index.cgi?url=http://www.cctv-information.co.uk/constant/lightrans.html

[Gator 0]

How would the GE B&W camera compare with the Panasonic day/night for problems with flare or dyanamic range problems? The Genwac I have is in the same range for low light sensitivity, but it suffers with bright headlights.

[CCTV_Suppliers 0]

How would the GE B&W camera compare with the Panasonic day/night for problems with flare or dyanamic range problems? The Genwac I have is in the same range for low light sensitivity, but it suffers with bright headlights.

 

Panasonic CP-484 day/night is the best in its class and does address the problems that you are having with your current camera... It is probably one of the most expensive, yet does deliver the goods...

[Lolo Wolf 0]

Gator, check out Optex and also EMX, used their power post for a scondary entrance gate build, mostly access gear but maybe take a look you maybe able to fab something up, optex may have what you are looking for, I use their Redwall products, (I hardwire, conduit/trench most of my work, got a old 190 dynahoe and track skidsteer so im not a big fan of wireless) The Redwalls are not on the cheap. Once you layout and work from a drawing (being a engineer Im sure you will) you can do all your distance and point refrences and then purchase gear that will satisfy your spec. Rory has a lot of hands on with bullet cams, I would add that the few Ive used are the nuvico (for non critical) their older 36ir was a decent build, as for high res BW all weather with average artifical light, I have had excellent results with the extreme EX10s and EX14s with IR cut D/ N without built in IR,(EX10 perhaps for your doors,small compact, black very tough cam...Ive had many in service for years rough severe weather fairly cost effective) Optex also has a solar power post but Ive yet to use it. I really get excellent results with the panasonic box cams, the newer D/N models as well the older CP474 and less frills the WV-CP254H if you wanna go with a smaller enclosure. Set one up recently with a computar TG10Z0513FCS 5-50mm good results and am benching one now with a comp TG2Z1816FCS 1.8-3.6mm for a special application, wide tight. Im sure you will get good hands on advice here for cams, Ive had very little probs with the panasonics.

[rory 0]

How would the GE B&W camera compare with the Panasonic day/night for problems with flare or dyanamic range problems? The Genwac I have is in the same range for low light sensitivity, but it suffers with bright headlights.

 

Panasonic CP-484 day/night is the best in its class and does address the problems that you are having with your current camera... It is probably one of the most expensive, yet does deliver the goods...

 

Not as sensitive though as the Exview GE. Gator needs to decide which is more important, if its the car lights, and it is still too dark, then he will need to get the pano and add IR or extra lighting.