survtech 0 Posted February 24, 2008 (edited) Hi, I represent a major Southern California casino. At the urging of Rory and others, I've started this thread for posting tests of both active devices and passive baluns for twisted-pair signal transmission. UPDATE I have been thinking about measuring the cameras directly at the source as a yardstick. I also believe we can adapt one of the NVT transmitters to be a receiver (they are a block module on a PC Board). We bought a batch with the baluns, used some with twisted-pair and removed the baluns from the ones we used with coax. Then we bought a bunch without baluns and installed the baluns in them when needed. We still have quite a few balun boards. We could test them as receivers to see if they exhibit different attenuations from the other 4. If they do, we can assume that the NVT transmitters are limiting the signal. If they don't, it is likely, but not certain, that they are not. Any manufacturers who wish to be included in our tests can PM me and I will give them an email contact for direct communication. Edited February 24, 2008 by Guest Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
survtech 0 Posted February 24, 2008 Here are the first results of our tests of passive baluns: Source: Ganz ZC-DN3039NHAT with built-in NVT passive balun. Cable Length: Approximately 1,500 ft. total CAT-5E consisting of: ** Camera to Punchdown - Approx. 270 ft. West Penn CC2418 (Siamese 2-pair CAT-5E plus 18/2 power) ** Punchdown to Punchdown - Approx. 1,200 ft. Berk-Tek 25-pair Cat-5E Trunk Cable ** Punchdown to DVR/Monitor - Approx. 30 ft. ARM Electronics CAT5E1G (Cat-5E 4-pair) Measuring Device: FM Systems CM-1 Camera Master Vigitron VB1001M Sync level 023 IRE Luminance 070 IRE Composite 093 IRE Color Burst 001 IRE VideoEase Sync level 023 IRE Luminance 069 IRE Composite 092 IRE Color Burst 001 IRE Video Baluns Unlimited BL3265 Sync level 023 IRE Luminance 070 IRE Composite 093 IRE Color Burst 001 IRE GVI VB59SP Sync level 023 IRE Luminance 069 IRE Composite 093 IRE Color Burst 001 IRE For reference, here is the data from the same camera using a Pelco TW3004AR active receiver: Sync level 039 IRE Luminance 147 IRE Composite 187 IRE Color Burst 027 IRE ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Here are the second results of our tests of passive baluns: Source: Ganz ZC-DN3039NHAT with built-in NVT passive balun. Cable Length: Approximately 1,000 ft. total CAT-5E consisting of: ** Camera to Punchdown - Approx. 70 ft. West Penn CC2418 (Siamese 2-pair CAT-5E plus 18/2 power) ** Punchdown to Punchdown - Approx. 900 ft. Berk-Tek 25-pair Cat-5E Trunk Cable ** Punchdown to DVR/Monitor - Approx. 30 ft. ARM Electronics CAT5E1G (Cat-5E 4-pair) Measuring Device: FM Systems CM-1 Camera Master Vigitron VB1001M Sync level 026 IRE Luminance 088 IRE Composite 115 IRE Color Burst 007 IRE VideoEase Sync level 026 IRE Luminance 087 IRE Composite 115 IRE Color Burst 007 IRE Video Baluns Unlimited BL3265 Sync level 026 IRE Luminance 088 IRE Composite 115 IRE Color Burst 007 IRE GVI VB59SP Sync level 027 IRE Luminance 088 IRE Composite 115 IRE Color Burst 007 IRE For reference, here is the data from the same camera using a Pelco TW3004AR active receiver: Sync level 036 IRE Luminance 150 IRE Composite 187 IRE Color Burst 024 IRE Notes: As you may have surmised, there are literally no measurable differences between the four baluns, since +/- 001IRE is basically the meter's resolution limits. Also, the picture on a high resolution JVC 21" color monitor shows no discernible differences between the four passive devices. On another note: On the first test at 1,500 ft., there were very obvious defects in the passive-passive video quality as compared to the passive-active. The picture was "washed out" and high brightness areas showed color fringing (rainbows of color) in them. The signal was strong enough to record a useable picture on our DVR system (Honeywell Enterprise). On the second test at 1,000 ft., the defects were far more subtle. The color fringing nearly disappeared; the washed out contrast improved immensely and the recorded video was nearly perfect. Conclusions: * There are no practical differences between the baluns listed and likely few differences in any reasonably well-made passive baluns. * Since the picture quality at 1,000 ft. was very good, I would say that the generally accepted limit of 750 ft. passive-passive is both valid and practical and at 500 ft. (the longest run inside the casino) it is comparable to RG-59 coax. * Since we did not test using other cable types, our findings only apply to the above listed cable types. * We have also used the following CAT-5E cables inside the casino with similar results: ** Arrow Wire 09LR-350EA4-6 CAT-5E 4-pair ** Arrow Wire 09-E5EA25-8 Cat-5E 25-pair Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted February 24, 2008 First off, thanks for doing this! Can you test some of these? I have used these with bad results - maybe they just dont like the tropical weather http://www.seco-larm.com/EVPPT11_C.htm Also, can you post some snapshots to verify the end result please? (pretty please) Also, they should be tested using Cat5 cable one would buy from the local electrical store or utilizing existing basic network Cat5/UTP. And lets see some photos of Survtech in action, also some of the card tables too Oh yeah and the name of the Casino so we can do a group visit there one day to gamble some of our hard earned CCTV money Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lolo Wolf 0 Posted February 24, 2008 Thank you for the in depth evaluations. Interesting results, however one most put into perspective the working environment and infrastructure of the facility you are conducting the retrival of your readings.The structured cabling... bending radius,conduits if any...cable trays and utility closets etc as well the various cable/wire qualities and electrical pollution.. all will impact the performance. I agree that most of the branded baluns perform close to each other and actually have had some decent results with cheaper OEM products but from my use of them (outside plant) I find that the higher the quality of the wire the the lower the attenuation, the lower the crosstalk = the better performance of baluns. Baluns to me are kinda like women, some you wanna keep forever and some you wish you never met. (Just to be politically correct Im sure there are plenty of woman that feel that way about men too.) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CCTV_Suppliers 0 Posted February 24, 2008 Survtech, great observations man... I think you should take the lead on this topic going forward, since you already have done so much to reveal this valuable results. What I can contribute are similar info from our manufacturers.. Next week sometimes, I will have our engineers to run similar tests with spectrum analyzers and signal generators to get similar or different results based on different tests.. In addition, I will obtain internal tests results from various manufacturers also, who may or may not want to release them... but I do know that with persistence attitude, they should release them... Lets take this as in depth as possible... and share such info with everyone. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CCTV_Suppliers 0 Posted February 24, 2008 Thank you for the in depth evaluations. Interesting results, however one most put into perspective the working environment and infrastructure of the facility you are conducting the retrival of your readings.The structured cabling... bending radius,conduits if any...cable trays and utility closets etc as well the various cable/wire qualities and electrical pollution.. all will impact the performance. I agree that most of the branded baluns perform close to each other and actually have had some decent results with cheaper OEM products but from my use of them (outside plant) I find that the higher the quality of the wire the the lower the attenuation, the lower the crosstalk = the better performance of baluns. Baluns to me are kinda like women, some you wanna keep forever and some you wish you never met. (Just to be politically correct Im sure there are plenty of woman that feel that way about men too.) Excellent observations man... Now we are looking at the balun technology from so many different angles and problems that persist being caused by other obstacles... Looks like you have more knowledge on cables, so can you please elaborate more on them that can and do cause deterioration of the video signal exceeding lets say 750' distances? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VST_Man 1 Posted February 24, 2008 I'd like to see the snapshots of tested results. start with the camera directly connected to the DVR, then add you baluns with 1 ft. of CAT5, then push it further, thru a punch block, ect. You'll find that the pic also shows a decrease in the TVL as the distance increases. And, if any wiring is not up to spec the pic shows it. CM proves it, but a pic is worth a 1000 words! I did this same testing a couple years back using the CM2 and was amazed at the loss of signal while still maintaining a pic. Passive Baluns & CAT5 are useful but not prefered in my opinion. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
survtech 0 Posted February 24, 2008 I'll try to do some additional experiments, including supplying the measurements directly at the cameras, connecting a "new-in-box" camera directly to measured lengths of CAT-5E and both replacing the built-in NVT baluns with paired others and putting an NVT balun at the other end. Keep in mind that we are a casino end user and as such, we only have access to equipment we have purchased or demos supplied by our distributors. We also have limited test equipment so the Camera Master and an oscilloscope will have to do. Also, we have limited time to conduct these experiments, so it may be some time before we can add details. I'm actually somewhat surprised by the repeatability of the measurements with the Camera Master. We attempted to use it before for tests of baluns and active receivers and the results were not promising. The "focus" setting was far too touchy to guarantee proper focus and our eyes and an oscilloscope appeared to be better tools for setting cable compensation on the Vigitron active hub we used for another long run so we stuffed it in a drawer and almost forgot we had it. We still have the Vigitron hub (though it is in storage) so I'll try to include it in future tests. Sorry, pictures of camera locations and gaming areas are totally out of the question since it would be a violation of policies. I urge others to perform similar experiments with whatever equipment they have and post their results here. As far as CAT-5E brands are concerned, the same restrictions apply - we are limited to what we have installed or have in stock. I can not justify the purchase of other brands just for experimentation so I'll leave that to others. If you look at the list above, you will see that we are using three different brands within our runs but really have no way to "split" out one from another. There is a wide variance there, though. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
survtech 0 Posted February 24, 2008 I'd like to see the snapshots of tested results. start with the camera directly connected to the DVR, then add you baluns with 1 ft. of CAT5, then push it further, thru a punch block, ect. You'll find that the pic also shows a decrease in the TVL as the distance increases. And, if any wiring is not up to spec the pic shows it. CM proves it, but a pic is worth a 1000 words! I did this same testing a couple years back using the CM2 and was amazed at the loss of signal while still maintaining a pic. Passive Baluns & CAT5 are useful but not prefered in my opinion. Perhaps a moderator can answer this: I don't have a website to upload any pictures to so I am limited here to linking to other sites' images. Where can I post pictures that can be linked here? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
C7 in CA 0 Posted February 24, 2008 (edited) I have used http://photobucket.com for years. Other options are http://flickr.com/ and http://smugmug.com smugmug charges a fee but has some cool features. Edited February 24, 2008 by Guest Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CollinR 0 Posted February 24, 2008 You have unlimted photo capacity through me if you want it. You can either email them to me or I can gve you FTP access to a webserver, whichever you prefer. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted February 24, 2008 Perhaps a moderator can answer this: I don't have a website to upload any pictures to so I am limited here to linking to other sites' images. Where can I post pictures that can be linked here? http://www.freeimagehosting.net/ http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
survtech 0 Posted February 24, 2008 Thanks. I'll see what I can do. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lolo Wolf 0 Posted February 24, 2008 In response to CCTV_Suppliers: seems to be a lot white papers on the performance of baluns is based on controlled enviroments, and as we all know the application of any technology is determined by many variables. That is one reason why we read on the forum so many differnt views and results from posters on their realtime experiences using them. However survtech has once again substantiated his claim that most baulns operate close to each others spec without dramatic deviation. The differences between observed values in the end I think is determined by application, thus the onsite use of the devices and the end result is mostly in the system build. I am FAR from being expert on the use of bauln technology and still consider cable (many refer to it as old tech) to be less problematic, withstanding abuse (pulls, protection etc) better than UTP. Yet to work in this industry, baulns and related devices are here to stay. Its great to get hands on data such as survtech is posting and I look foward to more insights from others. The few installs where I have used baluns I have concluded just as traditional cabling: 1) physical and mechanical placement 2) quality of utility power 3)system build ( quality of camera, DVR and related terminal equipment) 4)the quality of the UTP cable- These four factors together will make or break a install. It should be noted that to overcome losses created by senders, UTP wires, and receivers involves skill, time and equipment to correctly size to offset loss and attain a quality or "normal" pic. with UTP often more (equalization) doesnt mean better. I often use Belden products for my work, and only use NEC Riser-rated and cable with water-block options for outdoor work. The MediaTwist@ and related cable family from Belden have clear and concise tables listed on their spec such as capacitance, (the standard for Category 5 is 1000 pF/1000 ft. capacitance unbalance. Belden 1872A MediaTwist is less than 150 pF/1000 ft.) Point-to-point wiring and analog baseband video with UTP/baluns and all the claims really comes down to the ability of interference rejection of signals within the cable (either pair-to-pair crosstalk or cables that coexist nearby. A "better" or "High Quality" balun is only as good as the path put between it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted February 24, 2008 I am FAR from being expert on the use of bauln technology and still consider cable (many refer to it as old tech) to be less problematic, withstanding abuse (pulls, protection etc) better than UTP. Im with you on that, which one will the rat bite through quicker .. thats the question Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cctv_down_under 0 Posted February 25, 2008 Actually Rory they are more likely to bite through Coax...or more accurately ..into it, the little buggers like to sharpen their teeth on Copper. I had never been a big fan of passive baluns, but I can see the advantages, the biggest issue I see is that there is always the ris of clour skew...this is the rainbow effect seen at the edge of darker images in the picture, this is casued by the clour burst signal arriving at different intervals due to the termination length of the last twist...IE all terminated cables must have the same twist termination, cust at the same point and joined at the same point in the twist. I cant remember where I read it, but I remember reading soemthing about Cat5E and colour skew being an issue and that Cat5 plain was better for use with Baluns, but I can not understand why Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted February 25, 2008 Ok true, well hopefully their teeth are as dull as my cutters Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lolo Wolf 0 Posted February 25, 2008 In my humble opinion, skew shouldnt be a problem when twisted pair cable is used for composite/baseband video signals or any NTSC resolution-level signals, the luminance and chrominance signals are sent together over a single pair of wires with scan rates that are much slower than for VGA-type signals. Cat 5e standard specifies a maximum delay skew limit of 45 nanoseconds (ns) over the entire length of the cable used. This is not acceptable for analog RGB signals and high resolution video transmission, high-resolution video is subject to skew, particularly at long distances, where the transmitter processes the signal and sends each color down a separate pair and thats where you will observe the separation, or lack of correct convergence in colors such as a red/blue tinge. If you see "the rainbow effect" with a UTP/balun on a CCTV monitor I would blame the quality of the cable being used as well the placement of the run and other factors such as T-Taps/bridge-Taps etc. that would generate pic probs, I agree improper termination would affect the perfomance of the signal but its not only the termination of the twist that adds or shortens the length of the pair but also due to the constuction of the cable itself, the pairs of wires are twisted at different rates (to reduce- pair to pair- crosstalk) so within the cable itself the total length of each pair are longer than others to begin with. As noted earlier the quality of the cable, the consistency during the manufacturing process of wires, conductors and ability to maintain high standards with quality control have a major impact on signal results. (I honestly feel that although the rapid advance of technology is impressive the market place is oversaturated with substandard products making it harder and more expensive to design quality builds) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
survtech 0 Posted February 26, 2008 UPDATED 2/26/08 Here are the first results of our tests of passive baluns: Source: Ganz ZC-DN3039NHAT with built-in NVT passive balun. Cable Length: Approximately 1,500 ft. total CAT-5E consisting of: ** Camera to Punchdown - Approx. 270 ft. West Penn CC2418 (Siamese 2-pair CAT-5E plus 18/2 power) ** Punchdown to Punchdown - Approx. 1,200 ft. Berk-Tek 25-pair Cat-5E Trunk Cable ** Punchdown to DVR/Monitor - Approx. 30 ft. ARM Electronics CAT5E1G (Cat-5E 4-pair) Measuring Device: FM Systems CM-1 Camera Master Vigitron VB1001M Sync level 023 IRE Luminance 070 IRE Composite 093 IRE Color Burst 001 IRE VideoEase Sync level 023 IRE Luminance 069 IRE Composite 092 IRE Color Burst 001 IRE Video Baluns Unlimited BL3265 Sync level 023 IRE Luminance 070 IRE Composite 093 IRE Color Burst 001 IRE GVI VB59SP Sync level 023 IRE Luminance 069 IRE Composite 093 IRE Color Burst 001 IRE For reference, here is the data from the same camera using a Pelco TW3004AR active receiver: Sync level 039 IRE Luminance 147 IRE Composite 187 IRE Color Burst 027 IRE ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Here are the second results of our tests of passive baluns: Source: Ganz ZC-DN3039NHAT with built-in NVT passive balun. Cable Length: Approximately 1,000 ft. total CAT-5E consisting of: ** Camera to Punchdown - Approx. 70 ft. West Penn CC2418 (Siamese 2-pair CAT-5E plus 18/2 power) ** Punchdown to Punchdown - Approx. 900 ft. Berk-Tek 25-pair Cat-5E Trunk Cable ** Punchdown to DVR/Monitor - Approx. 30 ft. ARM Electronics CAT5E1G (Cat-5E 4-pair) Measuring Device: FM Systems CM-1 Camera Master Vigitron VB1001M Sync level 026 IRE Luminance 088 IRE Composite 115 IRE Color Burst 007 IRE VideoEase Sync level 026 IRE Luminance 087 IRE Composite 115 IRE Color Burst 007 IRE Video Baluns Unlimited BL3265 Sync level 026 IRE Luminance 088 IRE Composite 115 IRE Color Burst 007 IRE GVI VB59SP Sync level 027 IRE Luminance 088 IRE Composite 115 IRE Color Burst 007 IRE For reference, here is the data from the same camera using a Pelco TW3004AR active receiver: Sync level 036 IRE Luminance 150 IRE Composite 187 IRE Color Burst 024 IRE ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here are the third results of our tests of passive baluns: Source: Ganz ZC-DN3039NHAT with built-in NVT passive balun. Cable Length: Approximately 1,000 ft. total CAT-5E consisting of: ** Camera to Punchdown - Approx. 70 ft. West Penn CC2418 (Siamese 2-pair CAT-5E plus 18/2 power) ** Punchdown to Punchdown - Approx. 900 ft. Berk-Tek 25-pair Cat-5E Trunk Cable ** Punchdown to DVR/Monitor - Approx. 30 ft. ARM Electronics CAT5E1G (Cat-5E 4-pair) Measuring Device: FM Systems CM-1 Camera Master Taken Directly at the Camera Sync level 038 IRE Luminance 121 IRE Composite 160 IRE Color Burst 033 IRE Vigitron VB1001M Sync level 026 IRE Luminance 088 IRE Composite 115 IRE Color Burst 007 IRE VideoEase Sync level 026 IRE Luminance 088 IRE Composite 115 IRE Color Burst 007 IRE Video Baluns Unlimited BL3265 Sync level 026 IRE Luminance 088 IRE Composite 115 IRE Color Burst 007 IRE GVI VB59SP Sync level 027 IRE Luminance 088 IRE Composite 115 IRE Color Burst 007 IRE ! NVT Passive Transmitter Hooked Up in Reverse Sync level 027 IRE Luminance 090 IRE Composite 117 IRE Color Burst 006 IRE For reference, here is the data from the same camera using a Pelco TW3004AR active receiver: Sync level 036 IRE Luminance 150 IRE Composite 186 IRE Color Burst 024 IRE -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Notes: ! = We took an NVT passive transmitter from another Ganz ZCD-3000 series dome camera and hooked it up in reverse for this test. A short BNC cable was soldered to the PC board where it would connect to the camera's 75 ohm output. This is the same camera we tested previously in our second test. We did re-test with all baluns used previously but added a test directly at the camera and a test with the NVT balun. There is no model number on the NVT balun used since it is a module soldered to a PC board, not a stand-alone NVT balun. However, it is very likely that it is the same product as their low-end passive baluns. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted February 26, 2008 Looks like you lose alot of Color and Luminance? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
survtech 0 Posted February 26, 2008 Looks like you lose alot of Color and Luminance? Definitely some losses at 1,000 ft, but not as obvious as you would think. The tests at 1,500 ft. showed much more obvious defects in the picture. Remember, color burst is not the same as color level. The lower color burst does make our inserted text (time, date, camera #) have some obvious color fringing at 1,500 ft. but it is subtle at 1,000 ft. There is also a slight washing out of the monochrome signal but not as much as you would expect. Perhaps something else in the chain is compensating? We do use Pelco CM9760-MDA's to buffer each camera; split the signal to our matrix and A-D encoders and to insert time/date/camera # on the feed to our matrix (Pelco CM9780). We also have very high quality JVC 21" analog monitors on that side. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rory 0 Posted February 26, 2008 You mentioned it includes this? http://www.pelco.com/products/default.aspx?id=226 If so, that also includes Video Amplification. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
survtech 0 Posted February 26, 2008 (edited) You mentioned it includes this?http://www.pelco.com/products/default.aspx?id=226 If so, that also includes Video Amplification. Only if it is programmed into each input. There is a selectable "cable compensation" which can be set for "0 ft." (no amplification), "500 ft.", "1000 ft." and "1,500 ft.". We have all inputs set at "0 ft." The tests were done without having the MDA in the loop for measurement purposes; just for observing the signal. Edited February 26, 2008 by Guest Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
