ownership of video surveillance images

[Kevin b 0]

Installed a hidden camera to catch a neigbor who has been stealing property and mail from me. Obtained a restraining order and am proceeding with criminal charges. However, he has hired a fornesic expert to review digital images, (claiming images were altered, they were not) question, by allowing his expert to download images from my harddrive, who owns the copyright and or images from MY DVD Recorder, I am afraid he might distribute, publish or alter images of unsuspecting neighbors.

 

Thanks for info, need answers in a hurry.

[Thomas 0]

Installed a hidden camera to catch a neigbor who has been stealing property and mail from me. Obtained a restraining order and am proceeding with criminal charges. However, he has hired a fornesic expert to review digital images, (claiming images were altered, they were not) question, by allowing his expert to download images from my harddrive, who owns the copyright and or images from MY DVD Recorder, I am afraid he might distribute, publish or alter images of unsuspecting neighbors.

 

Thanks for info, need answers in a hurry.

 

Assuming the video is filmed in a public place, you do. However, if it's entered as evidence in trial, there are certain distribution rights that are off-set. If he's commenting on the trial, fair use would allow for almost all of the video to be cited.

[CameraGimp 0]

I would have thought the answer would depend on which country you live in.

[Kevin b 0]

Appreciate the info Thomas, however, let me clarify, the fornesic expert is only examing the hard drive for his client, the defendant in the restraininig order hearing, to verify if images have been altered and or manufactured, not in criminal proceedings as yet, another courtroom for that. So, question, insofar as the defendant has, in fact, violated my right to privacy twice, that I know of, regarding sensitive homeowner association information (he is reluntantly a board member, not for long I supose) I am fearful thta he might distribute, publish or maybe alter images of neighbors coming and going in front of the camera, which is in the common area of the building (checked with police, cleared toput a hidden camera in my front door peep hole) and i wanted to protect them from what he might do to send it to them to harass them or what. Want him to sign an agreement not to use, distribute, copy images by him, his attorney and or expert, they are delaying. So, do I have an automatic copyright on images now or need to apply for one to protect images from such actions by him? Is an agreement not to copy, download, distribute or publish necessary?

Appreciate anyones input.

 

Kevin

[Kevin b 0]

Btw, live in California, USA to answer your question.

[C7 in CA 0]

I don't have any answers to your legal questions, But as long as you keep that drive in tact and put away for a couple of years then anything he does with the footage could be disputed with the original.

 

But I gotta ask... I guess I don't get what you think he is going to do with footage of your neighbors walking past your door? Is there other incriminating evidence of neighbors on the drive or are you afraid he will alter the footage? I mean unless he has "George Lucas" talent and a budget to match I can't really think of any thing to alter if they are just walking past.

 

What did you use to record the video?

[kensplace 0]

You would need to get a lawyer or other professional familiar with the laws in your area, but I cant see (from a UK perspective) why he would even need to see footage of other people - the footage he would need to have a copy of (make sure they never get to touch the original footage/drive) would only be the footage where he has commited whatever criminal acts you are prosecuting him for surely?

[Kevin b 0]

To answer your question, used a DVD recorder that I bought at Frys here in California. My concern is that insofar as he has been harassing me by stealing and vandalizing plants and mail at my door, which coincidentally is located directly in the elevator vestibule I thought he might distribute images of neighbors who were not aware of the hidden camera. However, since serving him with the TRO, restraining order, I installed a camera outside my condo, in full view to let people know. This guy is dumb as they come, but thought as a board member of our HOA he might take it upon himself to distribute or publish images of neighbors for whatever reasons, most probably to make a case to remove the camera to protect himself from further being caught on camera.

 

What he and his attorney are doing is nothing more than a dog and pony show esp when he knows its HIM on the video, nothing can dispute that, but a exercise in futilty nonetheless.

 

Kevin

[Kevin b 0]

Am considering going to Court in an ex-parte motion to instruct his expert to only download, from the harddrive, only images of him and no one else, then I don't care what he does cause I will always retain the original.

 

Thanks for your imput, appreciate it, frustrated here in California!

[CCTV_Suppliers 0]

First of all, they can not ask for the entire hard drive content unless they have a court order of some wrong doing, which then will entitle your local DA to proceed with action against you... You do not have to give the entire content except the clips showing this person stealing your mail. It does not matter what his lawyer says, the law requires the evidence pertinent to the crime and not a broad expectation of finding dirt.. and that is what they will attempt to do showing that you not only targeted him, but also others...

 

None of this matters unless if you want to push this in court of law. You have quite of few positives against this person - the most important is that he is stealing your mail, which is a federal crime punishable by law. It does not matter why he stole it, he did, therefore if anything, your case must be looked at by your local DA, thus you are pursuing a criminal case against him...

 

How did you obtain restraining order against this person? You must of complained with local authorities, they had to legitimize your claim in order to give you restraining order... and that is an evidence that you must of provided.. Dependent who you presented this evidence, I will say that you should present it to your DA's office and start a criminal charges against this person. This way, you are not using your funds using your lawyer and expense the entire lawsuit. You can not force them to pay for damages, as all he did is to steal mail... but I am sure that your local authorities will pursue this with their unlimited budget and if anything, then can make this person an example that it is illegal to steal and even more importantly, steal mail...

 

If his lawyer is in touch with you, then chances are very good that they are preparing a lawsuit against you for "privacy" concerns. If I were you, I will not give them the entire hard drive, rather the video clips pertinent to your claim.. and more importantly, relay such evidence through your personal lawyer.. this way your right are protected.

 

Also, contact the manufacturer of your recorder and ask for documents showing the difficulty or even impossibility on alteration of the video. This way you can and should include the manufacturer in the process... After all, you are using their product, which is or will be challenged in court of law. If the manufacturer is hesitant to cooperate, then you have a decision to make... either drop the entire case or proceed with lawsuit not only against this person stealing your mail, but potentially naming the manufacturer of your recorder as defendant...

 

In the recent years, many manufacturers of recorders are involved in cases with different layers of courts. Validity of the video content is always challenged - everyone is talking about "water marker" that suppose to be identified and legitimize the authenticity of the video... Many of such manufacturers can not produce any real evidence and most of the time, the criminals walk... but some of the manufacturers have very well documented protocol that regardless how extensively gets challenged in the court of law, criminals loose..

 

What is the make and the model of your recorder? May be we can start from there and see if what you have that could be squashed by defendant's lawyer. You also can challenge their "expert's" opinion - after all, who is paying such expert's fee? What kind of background such expert has, what has been his or her expertise in similar cases, what type of certification does such expert has to qualify for an expert opinion? You can take them apart with such questions, but do you really want to pursue this and do you have the funds for such challenge?

 

That is why my suggestion is to involve your local authorities and I do not mean your local police department. They do not care, as nobody is harmed and there is no physical damage... the people who will be interested are at your DA's office or your City Attorney's office...

[Kevin b 0]

Appreciate your informative advice.

 

First, am representing myself in the Restraining order matter, which I got a TRO and the defendant subsequently hired a lawyer, (dare I say,ambulance chaser) who, even before the formal hearing, a month after the temporary restraining order was issued, wrote a brief declaring that any and images had to have been manufactored. In effect failing to read my original resquest that disclosed the fact that I had a hidden camera, dumb on their part, and they continue to believe that the onlyi camera I had was one put in outside my condo in the common area installed in early july when the incriminating images of him stealing over $2,000.00 in plants and 3 federal express packages, (throwing them all away in the trashchute next to the elevator) thereby failing to comprehend the images captured were from late May and all of June.

 

Recieved TRO on myapplication and when I went to court for the permament one showed only 8 of the twenty some incidences and agreed with teh Courts request to have the examiner examine the harddrive to see if any alternating had been done, which it wasn't, time and date stamp on images are correct and match with FED Ex deliveries ect.

 

Representing myself here in teh TRO hearing and want to seek the court to limit his downloading of images to just images of the defendant, which seems fair to me.

 

I know the DA will prosocute, but wanted to the the Restraining order in effect then take it to the DA and am pursuing a small claims matter to recover the cost to replace the plants and cost of DVD, camera and Recorder/hard drive that his actions fro the past 2 years predicated my having to install the hidden camera itself.

 

You seem most knowable and appreciate your input.

 

Kevin

[CCTV_Suppliers 0]

Appreciate your informative advice.

 

First, am representing myself in the Restraining order matter, which I got a TRO and the defendant subsequently hired a lawyer, (dare I say,ambulance chaser) who, even before the formal hearing, a month after the temporary restraining order was issued, wrote a brief declaring that any and images had to have been manufactored. In effect failing to read my original resquest that disclosed the fact that I had a hidden camera, dumb on their part, and they continue to believe that the onlyi camera I had was one put in outside my condo in the common area installed in early july when the incriminating images of him stealing over $2,000.00 in plants and 3 federal express packages, (throwing them all away in the trashchute next to the elevator) thereby failing to comprehend the images captured were from late May and all of June.

 

The Lawyer did not fail to read your original request, rather he did not care to address it, because you were not represented. His lawyer is not dump - he is doing his job and asking you produce evidence, but the purpose is to use against you. He can and will dispute anything and everything you present until you are represented by your attorney. I do not understand why are you giving the farm away, when you do not have to. In the nutshell, if the court, the judge that is, requesting such an evidence, then they have to specify exactly what they need and it must be very narrow of evidence, rather "everything". If you allow them to view all your hard drive without a court order, you basically letting them to incriminate you, which means that they can and will find clips that can in the nutshell, to be used against you. As an example, they can come up an argument that "you" are living in paranoia, thus recording everything that happens "may be" against the association rules or your local laws. They can make such assumption and an argument because now they have everything that you recorded, including other people who may not have been aware... Normally, and again you have to check with your local laws and your association rules, if you are using or intend to use a surveillance camera and record activities, you may had to post something on your property of such intent.. Not that it is illegal, but it could be a point of argument in their part.

 

Recieved TRO on myapplication and when I went to court for the permament one showed only 8 of the twenty some incidences and agreed with teh Courts request to have the examiner examine the harddrive to see if any alternating had been done, which it wasn't, time and date stamp on images are correct and match with FED Ex deliveries ect.

 

I do not understand... If you had an opportunity to show all 20+ of clips, why didn't you show it and rather showed only eight? If the court has requested an "examiner" or an "expert", did they appoint one or they just asked to find whomever available? If the court asks for a video evidence authenticity, then they have to appoint to a court recognized entity, company or an individual, who has previously shown unbiased performance on evidence. If they did not appoint one, then the opposing party may argue that they can come up with one, but then again, such "expert" must be recognized by such a court for substantiating such an evidence.

 

Just because the recorder has a time and date stamp does not mean that it is authentic video. Any slick lawyer will argue to prove such authenticity and non-availability of such evidence can and may be basis for such court to through this case out... One area that you can use as an authenticity of the video is to match the FedEx delivery time (which you can obtain online using FedEx tracking information that will show when such package was delivered and sign by someone) with the date and the time of the video...Chances are very good that the date will match, but the time could be off few minutes and as much an hour or more, which is again, is a point of argument for their lawyer... Did you contact the manufacturer and asked the questions that I raised in my previous post?

 

Representing myself here in teh TRO hearing and want to seek the court to limit his downloading of images to just images of the defendant, which seems fair to me.

 

You should and can argue that you are and will be limiting anyone to view the content of your recorder other than the actual evidence. Remember, the recorder is yours, thus what you give is what is being used as an evidence. If you agree to give them the recorder with all its content, then you are harming your chances. There must be a court order for possession of the recorder and even then, such order will stipulate where it should be delivered and who will be responsible to view, extract video or to validate its authenticity.

 

I know the DA will prosocute, but wanted to the the Restraining order in effect then take it to the DA and am pursuing a small claims matter to recover the cost to replace the plants and cost of DVD, camera and Recorder/hard drive that his actions fro the past 2 years predicated my having to install the hidden camera itself.

 

I will agree with your take on involving the DA or the City Attorney (dependent where you are, one of them may be interested) and force the issue for the criminal charges against them. As a civil matter, well, you have excellent chance, but you have to be prepared fully. Your case is as strong as the person presenting and how it is being presented. You can have all the evidence in the world, but always put yourself on the opposing party's shoes - what can they say or do that will diminish your evidence? Here is a simple argument that the opposing party can insert - why did it take you two years to bring forward such an evidence? Some courts do not like entrapment cases, which the opposing party can argue that you purposely and without anyone's knowledge may have violated someone's privacy and your action is may be illegal (again this may apply based on your local laws or better yet, case laws). Another argument that they can bring forward is that why didn't you file a police report during this time to substantiate your fear and the concern? Here is yet another argument that may come up - if I remember correctly, you are part of an association - who has their own bylaws and procedures, which means that they can put an argument is that why didn't you address this concern with such association, which then it could have been basis for such organization to take legal action against such person?

 

What I am trying to relay to you is that you can have a solid case and indisputable video evidence and yet still loose this case. My suggestion to you is to consult with a decent lawyer and see what your options are. Just because you think you are right (and I am sure that you are correct), does not constitute automatic slam dunk for your case. Most likely it will end up in the courts, as this is actually more criminal case rather than a civil case. Are you up for hiring an attorney and are you willing to outlay funds for what you believe in? Most of the time people back off rather quickly when they discover how much money they have to outlay for similar cases and the return is so negligible that it is not even enough to cover the base costs, which can include but not limited to attorney fees, expert fees, court costs, investigation costs, deposition costs, etc....

 

You seem most knowable and appreciate your input.

 

Kevin

[Kevin b 0]

I am overcome by your consideration and advice.

 

Do you mind my inquiring, are you in the legal profession? You bring up points and authories that suggest such.

 

The only reason the defendant brought in the forensic expert I believe or so he states in part is that" based on the fact that the camera and witnesses (other owners in the building) will testify to the installation of the outside camera in July, thereby ignoring the fact that his actions were caught for the 6 weeks previous (and by the looks he gave when he saw the several scenes, teh previous judge advise me to only bring the 'best' or 'worse' incidents thats why I only brought 7 or 8, he claims he could not have been caught on video thinking the camera that supposedly caught him was installed in July when he knew damn well he had stolen the stuff in late May and June.

 

Would have been a slam dunk with the orignal judge, but this one is different, allowing them, which I believe is their right, to inspect the images for any and all 'alerations or manufacturing' btw, my own expert who reviewed and downloaded a copy to protect the oringinal told me that nothing could be doctored expect the date, which it wasn't as it matches the FED EX delivery receipts from delivery personal that I have.

 

I know where you are coming from regarding over lawyering me, but don't know if I can afford representation. I would have thought the defendant would have biten the bullet, so to speak, and concern himself with bigger fish (i.e. small claims and criminal proceedings) but he is limited in scope, dare I say!

 

Appreciate your suggestions and am going to go ex-parte and ask that he expert only download only images with the defendant. Do you think I have a chance to get the court to agree to that, insofar as the judge is on vacation, I seek to get it from the first judge, who I believe will be understanding, or should I wait to the Sept 8th hearing when we were to reconvene (which I don't want to do) as the defendants attorney and expert stood me up for a scheduled appointment both last Thursday and Friday when I asked them to sign an Agreement that they would not publish, copy, download or foward images they downloaded.

 

Your thoughts?

 

I will contact the manufactor on Monday as you suggested.

 

Thanks again, I appreciate your input.

 

Kevin

[jpatz18 0]

I read a brief part of your problem. Just because the police said you could do it doesnt really matter. If there anything in the laws that state you can not record people without there knowledge, all you evidence could be thrown out. Also just because you have a camera in the open also doesnt matter either. Lawyer are far from stupid, they know what there doing why do you think they cost so much...

 

Another thing don't file a civil suit until you find out if there going to prosecute him and ask for restitution. That is a lot easier then getting a civil judgement which are difficult to collect on.

 

Also what plants would cost over 2k. To keep buying them after they kept getting stolen why would you keep buying them?

 

Dont always think you have a slam dunk case. Its all up to the judge. After the first fedex box was thrown away or first plant was stolen why didnt you notify the police/fedex and so on. not to deliver them at your step. there are things you could have done to stop it. It like saying you house was broking into 3 times and you have video why didnt you notify the police the first incident. Looks like a set-up.

 

Good luck with your case i doubt your'll get the ending your looking for. If he has money which it clearly seems he does, he will most likely end up winning.

[Lolo Wolf 0]

You maybe able to bypass the lawyers and bottom feeders if you have the suspect tampering with or stealing mail....contact your local postmaster and have them notify the regional postal inspector service and turn over your evidence to them.

[CCTV_Suppliers 0]

I am overcome by your consideration and advice.

 

Do you mind my inquiring, are you in the legal profession? You bring up points and authories that suggest such.

 

I am not an attorney nor have anything to do with legal system... Just have extensive knowledge and experience for close to 30 years in surveillance business I worked with many lawyers for similar cases at different levels of court systems and for different customers. My involvement has been limited by authenticating video schemes (or going against ones that can not authenticate) and advising clients what their options are. Also, worked with lawyers to assist in their cases, regardless if they represented plaintiffs or dependents.

 

The only reason the defendant brought in the forensic expert I believe or so he states in part is that" based on the fact that the camera and witnesses (other owners in the building) will testify to the installation of the outside camera in July, thereby ignoring the fact that his actions were caught for the 6 weeks previous

 

This is irrelevant to their assessment... The fact is that he was caught on the video and he is dancing around the problem. The reason he is bringing the fact that there are others in the same building will testify is that he will prove that the Association controls what goes outside of your property and without their authorization, you had no right to install camera or anything else for that matter. If he is on the board of the Association, then chances are good that he will put forth an amendment to force their will against you. Well, this may mean that the Association may ask you to remove it at your own expense (they may send their own people to remove the camera and force you to pay). Other than that, nothing else they can do.

 

(and by the looks he gave when he saw the several scenes, teh previous judge advise me to only bring the 'best' or 'worse' incidents thats why I only brought 7 or 8, he claims he could not have been caught on video thinking the camera that supposedly caught him was installed in July when he knew damn well he had stolen the stuff in late May and June.

 

You should not pick the best or the worst scenes.. evidence is an evidence and by "picking and choosing" what is acceptable or not could be an issue, thus opening an opportunity for the opposing party to place yet another argument - it is called selective evidence. What this means is that you can select what you think as an evidence and that may be either illegal or even incorrect, thus giving them a point of an argument.

 

Would have been a slam dunk with the orignal judge, but this one is different, allowing them, which I believe is their right, to inspect the images for any and all 'alerations or manufacturing' btw, my own expert who reviewed and downloaded a copy to protect the oringinal told me that nothing could be doctored expect the date, which it wasn't as it matches the FED EX delivery receipts from delivery personal that I have.

 

Nothing ever is slum dunk... Any party has the right to present an argument, regardless if someone wants to agree or not. Judge is trying to give the opposing party the opportunity to come clean and accept the evidence or challenge such evidence. This does not mean that you have to give the farm away and give them free ride... Rather, you can give them only what you presented already and nothing else. If the judge already seen the evidence, that is all you have to provide the opposing party. What may be a slam dunk is when you provide them with manufacturer's protocol on authentication of the video along with the video that you already has shown in the court... Any attorney with half brains will know that they can not challenge that even thought they can figure out some bogus argument, such as you may have violated his clients privacy laws, etc.

 

I know where you are coming from regarding over lawyering me, but don't know if I can afford representation. I would have thought the defendant would have biten the bullet, so to speak, and concern himself with bigger fish (i.e. small claims and criminal proceedings) but he is limited in scope, dare I say!

 

Majority people do not pursue this type of cases because of the cost associated with it. I am sure your neighbor also is limited, but he knows that he has more to loose, therefore may have hired an attorney (I am sure he was told that this many turn into a criminal case after all). You are hoping that if you put enough pressure, he may give in.. but you also have to realistic what you are asking. If your damages are higher than what he is willing to cover, then he may take a different approach and spend the same with his attorney....

 

Appreciate your suggestions and am going to go ex-parte and ask that he expert only download only images with the defendant. Do you think I have a chance to get the court to agree to that, insofar as the judge is on vacation, I seek to get it from the first judge, who I believe will be understanding, or should I wait to the Sept 8th hearing when we were to reconvene (which I don't want to do) as the defendants attorney and expert stood me up for a scheduled appointment both last Thursday and Friday when I asked them to sign an Agreement that they would not publish, copy, download or foward images they downloaded.

 

It all depends how your local court wants to proceed. The defendent's attorney, the witnesses and the video expert always can delay these proceedings and with good or intentional reasons. It is a legal maneuvering that works very well in the long run. This way you are constantly peddling and all they have to do is to delay using any reason possible... from that they are not ready, or the evidence still requires further investigation, someone is sick, one of the neighbors is not in town and you get the idea. They will not sign any agreements with you, period. If their attorney is involved, this will never happen. If you want an agreement to be signed, then you have to bring your own legal adviser who then will prepare such agreement to give you legal leverage... and even then, there is a very limited chance for this to happen.

 

Your thoughts?

 

I will contact the manufactor on Monday as you suggested.

 

This will be the start of your investigation... and hope that the manufacturer will cooperate (most do and will if they offer legit solution).

 

Here is a suggestion if I may... Why don't you call a meeting with this neighbor of yours and have a private discussion with him. Such meeting should be kept short and precise and the purpose is for him to understand that with what you already have is a lot more harmful than what he thinks. You actually have a lot of good evidence, but I am not sure if your ability to present it correctly is up to par. Instead, talk to him without yelling or screaming and make him understand that you have the goods and you are about release several governmental agencies, including the local DA's and City Attorney's office and the Postmaster, who actually have unlimited power when it involves with mail fraud or stealing mail..

 

Keep in mind that you should keep your demands reasonable and direct to the point. I have seen people give in when they realize that their outlay could be much higher and with worse outcome compared to paying something upfront. It is a chance for you and him...

 

 

Thanks again, I appreciate your input.

 

Kevin

[Lolo Wolf 0]

CCTV_Suppliers has given some interesting advice but I disagree with "Here is a suggestion if I may... Why don't you call a meeting with this neighbor of yours and have a private discussion"....... If you do pursue any kind of arbitration make sure that you do not do it in a "private" setting....go the legal path ... use a court appointed impartial referee agreed to by both parties who then is empowered to use authoritative judgment a so called quasi hearing and determination of your dispute. Since this is a long standind problem I would be very careful about contacting or approaching the person you are having the problems with, Ive seen in the past how such contacts can turn ugly with counter claims of harrasment and threats. Most courts and law enforcement frown upon these types of contacts after the fact which often lead to wasted court time the disputes/confrontations end up with a lot of back and forth bickering in some cases even turns to violence.

[CCTV_Suppliers 0]

Lolo Wolf, you should always explore settlement way before it involves attorneys, court systems or experts... I will if I am in the same situation and make the opposing party understand the situation that will cost them more. Again, it is a choice and option and nothing more.. You can disagree as much as you want, but I have seen people after many arguments and calling each other names, were able to sit down as decent human beings and reason...

[Lolo Wolf 0]

From what I read of the posters problem seems to be past the point of a rational sit down....lawyers are involved already and protection orders etc... I just suggest that the poster heed caution in any contact without witness at this point for his own protection... in other circumstances I would agree with you.

[CCTV_Suppliers 0]

I do agree with your assessment too.. we are talking about the same thing...

 

I have seen cases where lawyers were involved and they had pending cases in the court systems... and yet, one of the involved party decided to take the opposing party aside and put a real sense into their heads and it worked... I am all for having to pursue this if possible... rather than going through lawyers, courts, etc... At the end, someone is paying for these services and majority of people do not pursue as such when they find out how much such costs could be... If someone is pursuing this type of case because of a principal, then that is fine as long as they understand that it is not easy and it can not happen without spending money...

[Lolo Wolf 0]

Agree......I can appreciate your views on the subject of lawyers/fees etc.....avoiding courts and all the mess....if only people realized that the only thing that really matters in the end is good health but such is life....have a good day: regards

[C7 in CA 0]

I tried the arbitration route once and got burned. Not only did the arbitrator cost me 6 grand in arbitrator fees, but in my opinion as well as my lawyers opinion he misinterpreted the law and now I have no appeal option.

 

I know there are plenty of arbitration success stories, But use caution. In most circumstances (in California anyway...) you will have no appeal option.

[Deluxecctv.com 0]

We cannot give legal advice in anyway, but all I can say is that if you have a watermark, the footage you have will be able to be held up in court. There is not way video with a watermark can be tampered with. This is why court system still accept VHS tapes.

[kensplace 0]

Faking the actual footage is the hard if not nigh on impossibly impractical part, but watermarks can be pretty easily worked around, times and dates also easy to fake usually, even with watermarking on the final evidence.

 

A robust system in place to ensure the integrity of the data (such as data downloaded at the time of the incident, witnessed and archived in a secure tamper proof location) can prevent the claim that work was done to the footage after the event, or at least it should help.

[Media 0]

Does your dvr have watermark feature?

that should help with alternation of image or video questions.