AUDIO! Anyone got GOOD REMOTE audio? Past more than live

[DRACONiDigital 0]

Hey guys. We've been installing Geovision-based systems for over two years now. For most customers they work great. However, I've got a few customers that are DEMANDING quality audio. They currently have quite a few locations that are still using analog VCRs due to the fact that I can't seem to get my hands on a DVR card with software that is capable of meeting their needs. Aside from good video, they also require high-quality audio. We've installed great Loroue microphones and amplifiers and they sound, but the moment we pump them into a Geovision card (GV800), it really sucks. Bad. Because of this, I've tried a few other boards, a ViewMax Digital board (KD series), and another ViewMax Digital board (A re-branded Chance-I MPG-240). I've been in continious contact with Geovision, ViewMax Digital, and Chance-I, and none of them seem to be able to produce, nor want to produce, anything better than 8-bit audio. I'm starting a project to build a Linux-based system to record audio/video, but it's going to take a while. In my testing, I found 16-bit audio to be as good (or better) than tape. I know it's going to eat through hard disk space, but thankfully that cost is dropping all the time. These clients have audio quality rated higher than disk space, so that's where I'm at.

 

Now, that's only half the story. At the same time, these clients are demanding that they can review video from their remote sites at a central location. Video will most likely not be viewed from the servers themselves due to the environment. This means we need to be able to sit down at a WinXP machine (or even Linux, that would be better yet, as these clients use Linux much more than Windows, but I'd consider a Linux solution to be somewhat of a miracle at this point...) and pull up either a Windows-based client, or an Internet Explorer applet (or even Netscape, that would be even better, but that seems to be akin to the miracle angle), and pull up the remote locations PAST RECORDED VIDEO WITH AUDIO. Quality audio. Not degraded crap. Tape-quality. Again, I realize this is going to require bandwidth. Everything costs something, and I've explained this to my clients. In this situation, the access of past recorded audio/video is more important than live. If it's only a few minutes behind (five or less), then live could be scrapped altogether.

 

This is where I'm at. I've tried to contact quite a few vendors, but when I mention audio and remote audio, I get no response, negative response, or a positive response, but no follow-through.

 

What I require at this point, since I've been burned three times (Geovision, ViewMax Digital-twice), is a DEMONSTRATION of quality audio across the Internet. I am totally unwilling to buy another card for these clients unless I KNOW it's going to meet the requirements!

 

Some of these cards seem like they come SO close. The ViewMax Digital rebranded Chance-I MPG-240 card seems like one hell of a card. On-board MPEG compression and 8 channels of audio (along with 8 video). A great card! The software interface seems to work. The remote client works great too. But audio is stuck at 8-bit, and NO remote past audio. I've contacted them and they say the card is CAPABLE of 16-bit, but they won't turn it on because it seems like a huge development or support issue or something. I've also contacted them regarding the past audio, and as far as they can tell, it's not going to happen.

 

 

I gotta tell you, Geovision really makes me angry with audio. When we started over two years ago with the DVRs, Geovision promised us the sky and more. They seemed to be the only ones on the ball with audio. But after over two years of broken promises and delays and finally flat-out denials, I can't take it anymore. They even have a 16-channel audio input card, but what good is it? At least for my clients. Maybe there are companies out there where audio just is not at the top of the list.

 

Anyway, I sure would LOVE to hear from anyone who has had any favorable audio experiences with DVR cards that meet the above needs. It sure would make my YEAR!

 

As I've said, I've started a project to build my own, but it's looking to take awhile before I can get a working system.

 

Joe Thielen

DRACONi Digital

Toledo, OH

www.DRACONiDigital.com

[G22 0]

If Linux is preferred, I would recommend March Networks. I have never used them myself though, but am seriously considering one for home use. I have seen the 4410 in use... it replaced a Panasonic WJ-HD316 demo DVR, which was a surprise, as the Panasonic looked pretty amazing.

 

They are not cheap though, not here in Canada anyway. I received a quote today of $2590 CAD for the basic 4-channel 3204 model. No front buttons at all, just an install it,, admin remotely type.

 

http://www.marchnetworks.com/

[DRACONiDigital 0]

G22, thanks for the quick reply. I looked at their DVR comparison page, and it seems they offer NO audio

 

Thanks though!

[G22 0]

What bout under the Audio I/O section?

 

http://www.marchnetworks.com/products/dvr_comparison.asp

[DRACONiDigital 0]

What bout under the Audio I/O section?

 

http://www.marchnetworks.com/products/dvr_comparison.asp

 

Wow. I looked on the line that said 'Audio I/O', and I saw no checkmarks, and that was it.

 

Maybe I should, uh, look a bit more closely!

[G22 0]

Seems like perhaps they are add-on PCI Sound Cards.

[DRACONiDigital 0]

Check out:

 

http://www.marchnetworks.com/pdf/products/4410_DVR_Datasheet_low-res_01-05.pdf

 

Go to the bottom in the NOTES section. #1:

 

RAID = Random Array of Independent Disks

 

[G22 0]

And here I thought it was the Rory Array of Independent Disks.

[scottj 0]

In response to DRACONS audio situation.........

Audio obviously (for legal liability reasons) can be a very difficult task to manage effectively. We have had customers with very similiar requests.

 

A few things that your client must be willing to accept:

 

1.) They absolutely must have a very high quality professional sound card in the workstation (PC) for which they wish to view/listen to the playback. It is a must that this sound card has the ability to use software equalization to remove/filter out ambient noise recorded from the location where the microphone is located. A $50-80 sound card is not going to do the trick. About the cheapest quality i would use would be the Sound Blaster Audigy 2 Platinum eX.

 

 

[/url]www.creative.com

 

2.) SPEAKERS. The 2 dollar cheap PC speakers won't work, they need to dig a few dollars more into their budget. A high performance sound card with cheap speakers is useless.

 

3.) Microphone: We have had very good success using a Crown PZM11LL wall/ceiling mount microphone kit for audio scenerios. Since the Geovision accepts Line level audio, this microphone is easy and cost effective to install. Use high grade XLR Microphone cable from the PZM11LL to the DVR, making certain that your connections are well shielded and secure. 12VDC, 24VAC, or Phantom power can be used for the microphone. Cost is about $120 bucks.

 

Depending on your length of distance between the DVR and microphone location, you could use Direct Boxes with the PZM11 (non-line level) to create a balanced signal, then convert it back to unbalanced at the DVR. The downside is more cost for equipment and not as clean of an installation as it can be.

 

Regarding GeoVision with audio over IP. We found that using CenterV2 versus an active x web browser viewer allowed for much clearer audio over IP. Limiting the available bandwidth to about 75kb, and disabling the streaming "Live" video function reduced audio clipping caused by network congestion. the video portion of transmitting over IP will take priority for all available bandwidth if you do not set limitations. If you have fiber available, this will not be a concern whatsoever.

 

In summary, we have established deployments that require what you are seeking. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "tape quality" audio, but we can understand what people are saying over IP fairly clearly. Be sure to factor in the ambient noises at the microphone location. If you have an air conditioning duct close to the microphone, you will have noise.

 

i hope this helps somewhat for you. Im tired and it is getting tough for me to type anymore tonight. I wish you luck.

 

Scottj

[DRACONiDigital 0]

Thanks Scott.

 

I'm familiar with the legal problems. My clients problem is they're actually being REQUIRED to record audio. These clients are in Youth in Residential Care situations, and nearly every day agencies are being asked to record more and more, including audio.

 

When I say "tape quality", I mean we have Panasonic 24-hour recorders (not time-lapse, but 24 hours on an 8 hour tape, the tape will play in a standard VCR, but it plays a bit fast). When we play these tapes in another Panasonic recorder, they play back fine. The audio quality is fluid and understandable.

 

With Geovision, the quality is horrible. I have done tests at several locations where we'd compare the existing cameras (Silent Witness) and existing microphones (Loroue mics with base stations) on the Panasonic VCR system (with Robot Quad), and then switch to a Geovision system, and the audio just doesn't compare.

 

I know very well that ambient noise is a killer. At one location, a school, it's horrible for audio. However, on the Panasonic VCR, conversations can be made out when necessary. With Geovision, it's just crap. It's nearly impossible to make out conversations.

 

You mentioned Center. Can Center even do audio for PAST recorded video?

 

That's another big part of my requirements.

[scottj 0]

i understand what you mean about more and more end users wanting audio recorded as we have faced the same trend as of late.

 

The answer regarding CenterV2, I was referring to live audio and then I noticed that you need recorded audio. I am not 100% sure on that or not, I will ask one of our technicians in the morning as that is a very good question.

 

Have you though about using an IP camera deployment verus a traditional DVR? Typically you can find ADPCM integrated microphones which offer a very good audio quality Live, so I would imagine that the playback would be similiar if using a decent PC with high performance sound enhancements.

 

We have an icantek network camera in our front lobby and we have used it for video conferencing. We have also used Polycom products which are also very good for audio. The more I think about your application, the more I am leaning to believe that you basically just need quality VoIP that you can record offsite via FTP, or Server.

 

Give me your thoughts on this one, you have my interest now

and i would hope to be of some use for you here.

 

scottj

[qman 0]

I can't touch audio, as is illegal here in New England, and it will become illegal in NY by year's end. It's considered a class A misdemeanor, and I have known of 3 installers that re doing 90 day and 6 months in jail for selling and installing. I know of one case in Colorado of a distributing company that was shut down by the feds 3 years ago for selling audio recording cameras and microphones.

 

There is a federal law pertaining Audio Monitoring, which basically forbids it, unless in in your house, they have since adaptaed a ammendent where it is forbinden to install them in public and commercial locations.

 

Do a Search in the forum, someone posted a link to the Library of Congress showing the acutal law, letter by letter, how it was passed by congress last year.

[DRACONiDigital 0]

The problem is most of the sites already have the video cameras and audio. They're currently using Panasonic VCRs with Robot Quads. They want to go digital and get rid of the tapes.

 

I've actually thought about the VoIP stuff. But my clients are more interested in past stuff than live. They won't go back and look at the video until information about an incident reaches the central office (which can be an hour or two weeks)! Only then will they want to review the video/audio.

 

Unfortunately, to throw a wrench in here, motion detection is important too, due to storage. I've been messing with some post-recording motion detection, but it seems to drag stuff down.

 

Anyway, I'm open to ANY thoughts you may have on this, and certainly appreciate your feedback!!!

[DRACONiDigital 0]

I

There is a federal law pertaining Audio Monitoring, which basically forbids it, unless in in your house, they have since adaptaed a ammendent where it is forbinden to install them in public and commercial locations.

 

This is typical government hypocracy right here.

 

My clients are actually being REQUIRED by state-level government agencies to do this! The clients in this case are Youth in Residential Care providers whose customers are basically the state and county family agencies. They house kids with severe behavioral problems.

 

In Ohio, every single time a kid makes an accusation it must be investigated. From our experience, going straight to video has made this MUCH easier. So much so that the state and county agencies have caught on big time, and are really starting to demand this from us. More cameras. More microphones. They want to know what the kid is saying. They want to know what the staff is saying.

 

Here in Ohio, audio recording is allowed as long as one party involved knows it's going on. At our locations, we post signs that indicate audio and video monitoring is taking place.

[kaysadeya 0]

It's illegal, so don't know.

[DRACONiDigital 0]

It's illegal, so don't know.

 

Can you expand on this?

 

Where, exactly, is it illegal for you?

 

This is very interesting for me, and maybe for others out there. Maybe we can come up with a good list of places where it's legal and not.

 

Thanks!

[rory 0]

Okay, ill try to get a copy of a clip of video with audio and post it here. I have a couple clients with kalatel DVRs (GE Video), and the audio is great.

 

It does not stream audio but recorded is great.

 

Rory

[DRACONiDigital 0]

It does not stream audio but recorded is great.Rory

 

Unfortunately, without the streaming part, or at least some means of remote access, that doesn't help too much. Thanks though!

[Thomas 0]

I've run into the federal wiretapping laws from the PC end, where the application of the laws are a bit more odd. But the lession I've learned is that if you think you might be running afoul of the wiretapping laws, then you're already over the line. In every case I've ever heard of they have always gone against those doing the tapping.

[bryan1656 0]

Laws on audio intercets can be very confusing and vague. There are different rules for different situaitons, and federal law is often different than local and state laws

 

There are several retailers who got into some trouble by selling cameras with audio built in, and there have been numerous installers who have run afoul of the law.

 

It comes down to local laws, and various federal judicial districts interpretation of one's reasonable expectation of privacy. Listening to conversation is different than one's reasonable expectation to privacy from being seen.

 

Look... I'm not an attorney. Anyone thinking of installing any kind of audio equipment needs to consult with a local private attorney to get some clear guidelines.. as well as to keep them updated each year on any changes in the relevant statutes.

 

USC Title 18 PArt I Chapter 119 Section 2511 and 2512

http://straylight.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00002511----000-.html

 

Some relevant case cites FOR YOUR ATTORNEY TO LOOK UP

- United States v. John BRIO, Steve Alon N0. 97-4143

- United States v. The SPY FACTORY, INC, Ronald Kimball, Marlin Richardson and Tracy Ford No. S 1 95 cr 737 (SS)

- United States v. Richard Lee BAST and Redex Corporation, No. 72-2132

[rory 0]

It does not stream audio but recorded is great.Rory

 

Unfortunately, without the streaming part, or at least some means of remote access, that doesn't help too much. Thanks though!

 

You can connect to it remotely, download and playback the video and audio at the same time, it just doesnt stream the audio and video live, you have to download it then playback. One location I just did this with, it records in time lapse mode video, and audio is smooth. Email me if you want the clip.

 

 

Rory

[rory 0]

Only relevant to the US.

 

Laws on audio intercets can be very confusing and vague. There are different rules for different situaitons, and federal law is often different than local and state laws

 

There are several retailers who got into some trouble by selling cameras with audio built in, and there have been numerous installers who have run afoul of the law.

 

It comes down to local laws, and various federal judicial districts interpretation of one's reasonable expectation of privacy. Listening to conversation is different than one's reasonable expectation to privacy from being seen.

 

Look... I'm not an attorney. Anyone thinking of installing any kind of audio equipment needs to consult with a local private attorney to get some clear guidelines.. as well as to keep them updated each year on any changes in the relevant statutes.

 

USC Title 18 PArt I Chapter 119 Section 2511 and 2512

http://straylight.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00002511----000-.html

 

Some relevant case cites FOR YOUR ATTORNEY TO LOOK UP

- United States v. John BRIO, Steve Alon N0. 97-4143

- United States v. The SPY FACTORY, INC, Ronald Kimball, Marlin Richardson and Tracy Ford No. S 1 95 cr 737 (SS)

- United States v. Richard Lee BAST and Redex Corporation, No. 72-2132

[bryan1656 0]

I gotta ask..

 

What do you mean by "past audio"?

[bryan1656 0]

yes... good point Rory, I apologize for being US=centric

[DRACONiDigital 0]

I gotta ask..

 

What do you mean by "past audio"?

 

When I say "past audio", I'm referring to recorded audio (& synchronous video). Basically, the opposite of live video.

 

When this client goes back to review this stuff, it may be a week old. It may be a day old. It may be a month old. But viewing events live doesn't seem to happen, as communications about the events take place in the form of paperwork, and as well all know very well, paperwork takes time to travel (even in the information age). Just because it's sitting on your desk fast doesn't mean you read it fast.

 

Anyway, back to the subject, I'm talking about recorded audio & video.