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missmimi

Elevator CCTV cabling problem.. Help!

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Hi everyone,

 

We've installed two analog cameras in two separate elevators of an apartment block using Belden cat5e with video baluns. The videos were great but after 8 months, one of the camera was having video loss while the other in another elevator is doing fine.

 

We've checked the cables and we suspect the cables must be cracked somewhere causing video loss.

 

Are the cat5e cables strong enough to be used inside the elevator? Is the movement of the elevator caused the cable to crack? Is there any possible cause of the problem?

 

Thanks in advance!

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I would suspect the constant flexing has caused a breakage; it is, after all, very thin (24ga.) solid core. Have you used all the pairs, or is there another pair you could switch to?

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I would suspect the constant flexing has caused a breakage; it is, after all, very thin (24ga.) solid core. Have you used all the pairs, or is there another pair you could switch to?

 

Hi Soundy,

 

Thanks for your quick response!

Yea, I don't think the technician used all the pairs. We could try to use another pair. Thanks again.

 

One more question, we used Belden 1583A Cat5e for this application. Is this model suitable for elevator application?

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Nothing wrong with Cat5e *as such*... given the choice though, I wouldn't use a solid-core UTP for an elevator traveler cable. Stranded Cat5e or Cat6 would be preferable... or better yet, something that's a larger gauge, like 20 or even 18 stranded. Nobody says baluns HAVE to use UTP; it's just usually the most convenient. I've used them on station-Z wire (22/4 solid), 20/2 shielded, and 18/2 (in one case, actually, one run on all three... the results were a little soft, I wouldn't recommend mixing and matching cable types like that).

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Contact the elevator company used by the property owner and have them tag a spare pair of com wires in the traveller cable. Using a UTP cable piggybacked to the outside of the traveller cable is inviting trouble, as you are now finding out. There is a thread on this very subject in this forum. Search back and you'll find it. There was a recommendation of an alternate cable that yielded good results. Though more expense, try using the original traveller cable first.

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Contact the elevator company used by the property owner and have them tag a spare pair of com wires in the traveller cable. Using a UTP cable piggybacked to the outside of the traveller cable is inviting trouble, as you are now finding out. There is a thread on this very subject in this forum. Search back and you'll find it. There was a recommendation of an alternate cable that yielded good results. Though more expense, try using the original traveller cable first.

 

 

x2

Depending on the elevator company, they usually want you to use their cable instead of putting another cable in the shaft. Around here they are pretty strict about anything outside of their wire in the shaft. Just call them up and see.

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Thanks to all your replies. Appreciate it.

 

Can anyone advise how should I explain the cause to my customer who doesn't seem to understand that the cables may break due to constant flexing.

 

They think that cables like Belden should have gone through tensile and bending test during production and the cables shouldn't break.

 

Thanks again.

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Just explain it like that: ANY cable can break under constant flexing, period. The smaller it is, the greater the chance, and solid core is more likely to break than stranded. This is a simple fact of life.

 

Add to that, if the cable was nicked or kinked anywhere, that creates a weak point that will break sooner... even if it was kinked and then straightened out during installation.

 

Like Chris and Tailbone say, your best option is to find another free pair in the original traveler cable, which IS designed for the constant flexing... it only needs one pair; camera power can usually be pulled from existing line voltage ON the car (if there isn't one, have an electrician put in a outlet on the car roof).

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Can anyone advise how should I explain the cause to my customer who doesn't seem to understand that the cables may break due to constant flexing.

 

 

There's probably not much that could be said at this point if you are the original installer and ran the cable. The burden and expense is on you to correct the problem in accordance to local code. If you didn't run these cables you need to tell the customer to contact who did and have them correct the problem. The issue is you are now liable if you ran the cables or try to modify what someone else did. Either way, you need to work with the elevator company and eat that expense of them ringing out a pair for you. Probably no justifiable way to pass this cost to the customer as this should have been charged up front in the proposal.

 

Obviously there are ways to get around the problem in a less than professional manor. I'll leave that up to someone else to answer.

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Can anyone advise how should I explain the cause to my customer who doesn't seem to understand that the cables may break due to constant flexing.

 

 

There's probably not much that could be said at this point if you are the original installer and ran the cable. The burden and expense is on you to correct the problem in accordance to local code. If you didn't run these cables you need to tell the customer to contact who did and have them correct the problem. The issue is you are now liable if you ran the cables or try to modify what someone else did. Either way, you need to work with the elevator company and eat that expense of them ringing out a pair for you. Probably no justifiable way to pass this cost to the customer as this should have been charged up front in the proposal.

 

Obviously there are ways to get around the problem in a less than professional manor. I'll leave that up to someone else to answer.

 

 

Tailbone,

 

I don't really understand why should we bear the expense since we did not provide any warranty on cabling works in our proposal earlier. I mean most local installers do not offer warranty on cabling. And the cabling has been done and it's been working since 6 months ago. Do you offer warranty in your area?

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Can anyone advise how should I explain the cause to my customer who doesn't seem to understand that the cables may break due to constant flexing.

 

 

There's probably not much that could be said at this point if you are the original installer and ran the cable. The burden and expense is on you to correct the problem in accordance to local code. If you didn't run these cables you need to tell the customer to contact who did and have them correct the problem. The issue is you are now liable if you ran the cables or try to modify what someone else did. Either way, you need to work with the elevator company and eat that expense of them ringing out a pair for you. Probably no justifiable way to pass this cost to the customer as this should have been charged up front in the proposal.

 

Obviously there are ways to get around the problem in a less than professional manor. I'll leave that up to someone else to answer.

 

 

Tailbone,

 

I don't really understand why should we bear the expense since we did not provide any warranty on cabling works in our proposal earlier. I mean most local installers do not offer warranty on cabling. And the cabling has been done and it's been working since 6 months ago. Do you offer warranty in your area?

 

 

 

 

is the warranty not on what you install . system / cables / monitors. cat5 has a work life

longer than 6 months. so its not the cable its the way it has been installed ..... so its an installers problem.

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I don't really understand why should we bear the expense since we did not provide any warranty on cabling works in our proposal earlier. I mean most local installers do not offer warranty on cabling. And the cabling has been done and it's been working since 6 months ago. Do you offer warranty in your area?

 

 

Let me be blunt, well without sounding too blunt. You improperly installed a product without knowledge of its ability to be trouble free for your customer in the near future and you expect them to eat the costs for YOUR mistake. You intentionally or unintentionally installed the wrong cabling because it was the cheaper and easier solution than getting prior advice from individuals more experienced in this area. Like I said earlier, we get the proper outside contractors and vendors involved to make the install bulletproof prior to giving the proposal to the prospective customer. On that note, it is a very simple procedure to try to locate a pair of com wires in the traveler cable. We don't do that ourselves as it opens up another layer of liability we don't need. We give the customer the option to have their elevator company provide us the pair or we include this cost in the proposal, preferably subbing it to their elevator company. It is much cheaper for the customer to provide the pair as we charge accordingly to give them more incentive to pursue that route.

 

Yes, we offer warranty. The bottom line, your situation is NOT warranty, it is correcting shoddy workmanship and restoring your company's good name. A happy customer is your best advertisement, use it to your advantage.

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Sorry to say, missmimi, but I must agree with my esteemed colleagues - if indeed the problem is a breakage in the wire, then it's likely caused by either improper installation, or simply using the wrong type of wire. Either way, it would be YOUR responsibility (well, your company's) to repair it at your own cost.

 

In that case, the best way to handle is with the customer is just to say, yep, our mistake, and we'll get it taken care of, and we're sorry for the trouble.

 

It's possible (though not likely, from the sound of it) that the problem lies elsewhere... you could spend a lot of time troubleshooting it, or just say, "we're not sure where the problem is, but we'll get it working, no charge" and then follow the advice above of using the existing traveler.

 

That makes you look like the hero, instead of a weasel trying to pass the buck. And like Tailbone says, "a happy customer is your best advertisement"!

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Sorry to say, missmimi, but I must agree with my esteemed colleagues - if indeed the problem is a breakage in the wire, then it's likely caused by either improper installation, or simply using the wrong type of wire. Either way, it would be YOUR responsibility (well, your company's) to repair it at your own cost.

 

In that case, the best way to handle is with the customer is just to say, yep, our mistake, and we'll get it taken care of, and we're sorry for the trouble.

 

It's possible (though not likely, from the sound of it) that the problem lies elsewhere... you could spend a lot of time troubleshooting it, or just say, "we're not sure where the problem is, but we'll get it working, no charge" and then follow the advic

e above of using the existing traveler.

 

 

That makes you look like the hero, instead of a weasel trying to pass the buck. And like Tailbone says, "a happy customer is your best advertisement"!

 

 

 

Soundy & tailbone,

 

Thanks for the advise. As you mentioned the cat5e model that we were supposed to use is with stranded core. Can you advise which Belden cat5e comes with stranded core? Thanks again!

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Sorry to say, missmimi, but I must agree with my esteemed colleagues - if indeed the problem is a breakage in the wire, then it's likely caused by either improper installation, or simply using the wrong type of wire. Either way, it would be YOUR responsibility (well, your company's) to repair it at your own cost.

 

In that case, the best way to handle is with the customer is just to say, yep, our mistake, and we'll get it taken care of, and we're sorry for the trouble.

 

It's possible (though not likely, from the sound of it) that the problem lies elsewhere... you could spend a lot of time troubleshooting it, or just say, "we're not sure where the problem is, but we'll get it working, no charge" and then follow the advic

e above of using the existing traveler.

 

 

That makes you look like the hero, instead of a weasel trying to pass the buck. And like Tailbone says, "a happy customer is your best advertisement"!

 

 

 

Soundy & tailbone,

 

Thanks for the advise. As you mentioned the cat5e model that we were supposed to use is with stranded core. Can you advise which Belden cat5e comes with stranded core? Thanks again!

 

 

Is there a reason that you do not want to work with the elevator company to get a pair of their wires which are already the correct type and in place??

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Might not be that easy... we did one site where we used an existing traveler to get a camera in the elevator, and while setting it up during construction was nice and efficient because the elevator tech was onsite, when we needed to service it later, we found that the elevator company was based back east, that they had all of two technicians covering the West Coast, and that they were booked two months ahead.

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Might not be that easy... we did one site where we used an existing traveler to get a camera in the elevator, and while setting it up during construction was nice and efficient because the elevator tech was onsite, when we needed to service it later, we found that the elevator company was based back east, that they had all of two technicians covering the West Coast, and that they were booked two months ahead.

 

Interesting! What the hell type of high tech traveller they put in there that the customer's maintenance contract they have with the present elevator servicing company couldn't cover? It sounds like they wanted to create a little drama to jack up your price. A good majority of customers have drawings on-site for their elevators, if not, the elevator company has them for a nominal fee. Pretty much any elevator company can provide what you need, even the rare independent ones. All of this is gravy for the elevator company.

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Interesting! What the hell type of high tech traveller they put in there that the customer's maintenance contract they have with the present elevator servicing company couldn't cover?

Not sure I followed that... this WAS the company that installed the elevator, and if I remember correctly, they're the company that has the maintenance contract for the building management.

 

A good majority of customers have drawings on-site for their elevators, if not, the elevator company has them for a nominal fee. Pretty much any elevator company can provide what you need, even the rare independent ones. All of this is gravy for the elevator company.

Aside from the fact that the customer requested the elevator contractors be there... I don't like when other people who "think" they know what they're doing, tinker with my systems trying to do something that's related to their systems, and then muck something up that I have to try to figure out... and I generally try to extend the same courtesy to other trades as well, especially when they're trades you know you're going to have to deal with again.

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Aside from the fact that the customer requested the elevator contractors be there... I don't like when other people who "think" they know what they're doing, tinker with my systems trying to do something that's related to their systems, and then muck something up that I have to try to figure out... and I generally try to extend the same courtesy to other trades as well, especially when they're trades you know you're going to have to deal with again.

 

Agreed! We've worked with most of the bigger companies and getting what needs to be done generally doesn't take more than 48-hours. I guess I should consider myself fortunate that I've built some pretty sound business relationships over the years...

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It usually works out pretty quickly for us, too... this was certainly an exception.

 

Part of the issue here, too, was that we needed access to the top of the car... the customer was concerned (and rightly so) about liability and safety issues.

 

It's no different, to me, that needing to deal with electrical work... I CAN do it... I'm not certified to do it. So at home, I do my own... on a customer site, with WCB regs and corporate safety committees to deal with... I call in the electricians.

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The bottom line, your situation is NOT warranty, it is correcting shoddy workmanship and restoring your company's good name. A happy customer is your best advertisement, use it to your advantage.

 

 

+100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

 

 

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I would suspect the constant flexing has caused a breakage; it is, after all, very thin (24ga.) solid core. Have you used all the pairs, or is there another pair you could switch to?

 

Soundy,

 

Our technician switched to another pair and it worked! Thank you for your advise..

 

We asked the local elevator service company on using their spare traveller but were told there wasn't any left for us and if they have they would not let us use it. Maybe that's why nobody in our area had used the traveller.

 

One more question, I've heard of a new product, Qccess laser optical video transmission system which is wireless and it comes with a 3 year warranty.

 

Just wondering anyone here has any experience using this before? How's the video quality?

 

Thanks!

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Never heard of it before - it looks very interesting. Optical signal transmission isn't new, although I haven't seen this sort of an implementation before. I would suspect it works fairly well as long as you keep the two units aligned - don't know what the tolerance would be if the car has any "shimmy" to it. Do you know what the pricing is on it?

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Wow how did they ever get away with running there own wire in elev shaft???

 

By law these days all travelers must have a 10% of unused conductors.

 

Try changing the NVT first or Boulum, then if your sure its the cat5, change over to the traveler wires.

PROBLEM SOLVD

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