Few basic questions D1 related

[shockwave199 0]

"I am not that reach to buy garbage" if that make sense to you

Try as I may, no- that's doesn't make sense to me. Something is lost in the translation I think.

 

My cameras are mostly all more than 330 lines, I dont have the specs in front of me but one is 540 and one is 600 day night very small bullet cameras.

It would be good to know exactly what cameras you have in line now are. Something tells me they may not be all that good.

 

I WAS under the assumption that plugging these into a "Full D1" DVR would greatly improve the image quality, and therefore identify an intruder farther away than the 20' or so I can now.

Nothing is a given. If the cameras stink it won't matter. Nothing about D1 will help you ID someone 20' out, by itself. You need cameras that will have a tight fov for proper facial ID. With better analog gear including varifocal cameras for proper fov, you'll have better picture. Whether that would even be good enough for YOU, only you can say. If not, you'll have to move on to MP camera systems to satisfy your needs.

[vector18 1]

Shockwave is right. It doesn't matter how good your cameras are. You need tight shots for facial recognition which means to cover more areas, you need more cameras. Just upgrading your dvr alone will not make what you have better.

 

And no, I do not have ADD, I just do not like people telling me something when they are wrong.

[survtech 0]

What does that have to do with what we're talking about?

Darned if I know. Do you?

 

I'm not the one that started talking about 1000+ camera systems.......

Yes but you're the one who started talking about 960H when the OP was asking about D1. Since you changed the subject, so did I.

[survtech 0]

Hi, is this with a standard DVR like mine, or with a "Full D1" recorder?

I've seen the same results on analog matrices with both high-quality CRT and LCD monitors, standalone DVRs and a full-featured NVR/VMS with D1-capable encoders.

[survtech 0]

OK my ORIGINAL post's goal was to find a reasonably affordable security DVR and camera system that would deliver higher resolution than my old style analog sytem that is NOT D1 or 4CIF.

 

Also looking to raise my knowlege about the various technologies.

 

Broadly, it looks from reading the posts that there are three general categories of DVR rising in picture quality:

 

Analog CIF (old school)

D1 and 4CIF - ballpark similar

Megapixel Digital (various levels)

 

I dont think I can afford IP/Digital Megapixel type technology, so my next step looks like D1/4CIF

 

My cameras are mostly all more than 330 lines, I dont have the specs in front of me but one is 540 and one is 600 day night very small bullet cameras.

 

I WAS under the assumption that plugging these into a "Full D1" DVR would greatly improve the image quality, and therefore identify an intruder farther away than the 20' or so I can now.

 

But then there was the camera test post that calls that into question with a Super HAD II chip technology mentioned as the only really better technology of camera itself. So now I am in fact a bit confused.

 

I would welcome example DVR's and cameras to go see that some of you might have experience with and can vouch for.

 

Thanks all info appreciated.

Brent, I think you have you look at it from both perspectives. 470 to 600(+) line cameras will have better resolution than 330-line cameras but your DVR also needs to have full 4CIF/D1 resolution to fully take advantage of it. CIF is CIF and if that's what you are recording/monitoring at, increasing the cameras' resolution will not make any real difference.

 

Increasing the DVR resolution will likely improve the images a bit more with 330-line cameras than increasing the cameras' resolution while retaining CIF recording/monitoring. For best results, both resolutions should be increased. 960H is a red herring in your case. As I said before, when viewed on a full resolution analog system or a 4CIF/D1 recording system, there will likely be no noticeable difference in the resolution of high quality cameras, whether they are rated 470, 500, 540, 600, 650, 700 or whatever lines of resolution. There will be differences in respect to how different cameras handle low light, back light, etc., though.

 

960H cameras require 960H or better recording and monitoring to demonstrate any improvement.

 

As others have mentioned, there are other factors that come into play. Even going to megapixel does not guarantee you'll get satisfactory results. Camera location, lens selection, day/night capabilities and WDR all can play a part in obtaining usable images.

[vector18 1]

I'm not the one that started talking about 1000+ camera systems.......

Yes but you're the one who started talking about 960H when the OP was asking about D1. Since you changed the subject, so did I.

 

Talking about 960h DVrs has something to do with what he was asking. That's not changing the subject as you did by talking about 1000+ camera systems. You need to stop.

[survtech 0]

Thanks, Mister Know-it-all!

[vector18 1]

If I don't defend myself, what type of person does that make me? I simply say it how it is, never said I am a know it all.

[Brent1971 0]

Hi I am an end user looking to go from 4 analog CIF cameras with dvr to more cameras and sharper image. the info has been helpful for sure.

 

I CAN google "d1" "megapixel" type terms but as rumsfeld once said "you dont know what you dont know" or was that Yogi Berra. lol

 

Anyway the links to actual producs helps. Particularly D1/4cif on the DVR and if I go megapixel, I need camera suggestions/links.

 

One issue is my cametas are small lipstick and hidden so they dont detract from the looks but these ip megapixel units are quite larger. but i could prob install inside the walls with only the lens showing. so the products links and reccommendations are great so keep them coming

[shockwave199 0]

"I am not that reach to buy garbage" if that make sense to you

After a good night sleep I think I got it.

 

'I'm not that rich to buy garbage'. It wasn't the translation, it was the spelling.

 

I do agree with that and I have another way of putting it.

 

Cheap is cheap, cheap is expensive.

 

[survtech 0]

If I don't defend myself, what type of person does that make me?

Sorry, you don't want my opinion on that subject.

[Brent1971 0]

I am the original poster. I am asking for very basic info that will help others also looking to equip themselves with better tech. Please, can we just stick to the subjects.

 

I do have an unused NAS that can spool IP camera data. I believe it has one channel and can buy a license for additional cameras its a Synology DS110 so if I go digital, I just need cameras that are going to be worth it.

 

By the way, in very approximate terms because I do know lenses and chips can vary quite a bit, but in general terms, how many megapixels equals D1 in image density.

 

Still would like to see a few more examples of D1 DVR's, and megapixels cameras in the homeowner affordable range.

[ak357 0]

"I am not that reach to buy garbage" if that make sense to you

After a good night sleep I think I got it.

 

'I'm not that rich to buy garbage'. It wasn't the translation, it was the spelling.

 

I do agree with that and I have another way of putting it.

 

Cheap is cheap, cheap is expensive.

 

 

shockwave199 you are DA Man !

u got it

hope u did not stress yourself

[ak357 0]

I am the original poster. I am asking for very basic info that will help others also looking to equip themselves with better tech. Please, can we just stick to the subjects.

 

I do have an unused NAS that can spool IP camera data. I believe it has one channel and can buy a license for additional cameras its a Synology DS110 so if I go digital, I just need cameras that are going to be worth it.

 

By the way, in very approximate terms because I do know lenses and chips can vary quite a bit, but in general terms, how many megapixels equals D1 in image density.

 

Still would like to see a few more examples of D1 DVR's, and megapixels cameras in the homeowner affordable range.

 

multiply 720x480 =345600 or ~ 0.35 MP

but in my opinion No DVR on market will give true D1 quality resolution recording

U will get D1 size but not quality

just repeating my self again my opinion

lot will not agree most likely

Edited July 23, 2012 by Guest

[Brent1971 0]

Very cool, that helps raise my understanding, thanks!

 

I am the original poster. I am asking for very basic info that will help others also looking to equip themselves with better tech. Please, can we just stick to the subjects.

 

I do have an unused NAS that can spool IP camera data. I believe it has one channel and can buy a license for additional cameras its a Synology DS110 so if I go digital, I just need cameras that are going to be worth it.

 

By the way, in very approximate terms because I do know lenses and chips can vary quite a bit, but in general terms, how many megapixels equals D1 in image density.

 

Still would like to see a few more examples of D1 DVR's, and megapixels cameras in the homeowner affordable range.

 

multiply 720x480 =345600 or ~ 0.35 MP

[survtech 0]

Brent,

 

We've all tried to give you good information, other than recommending what DVR to buy (which I won't do). I'll reiterate:

 

If your current DVR is only capable of CIF recording and monitoring (something I'm not certain has been disclosed for certain), upgrading to a 4CIF/D1 DVR will definitely improve the recorded and monitored resolution. The difference will be more obvious if your cameras are higher resolution to begin with (500+ lines vs. 330-lines), but there will be a difference in any case.

 

It is up to you to decide if you want to go the extra mile with 960H or megapixel resolutions. Something to keep in mind, as I explained previously, is that you would need to change out both the cameras and the DVR to see the benefits from either 960H or megapixel. MP cameras will not work on analog DVRs. 960H cameras will give you no better resolution on 4CIF/D1 DVRs.

 

Also keep in mind that megapixel cameras often don't work as well in low light as the analog equivalents.

[Brent1971 0]

My basic Hard Drive based security surveillance DVR is ONLY CIF.

 

My best camera is this one 540TVL Day/Night bought a couple years ago. I have others

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002C2WL7Y/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00

 

Have one of these, it's so-so:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0012ZQXPI/ref=wms_ohs_product

 

Have a couple board cameras and a B&W lipstick cam thats supposed to be 600 lines but isnt as sharp as the Day/Night 540 one.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Brent,

 

We've all tried to give you good information, other than recommending what DVR to buy (which I won't do). I'll reiterate:

 

If your current DVR is only capable of CIF recording and monitoring (something I'm not certain has been disclosed for certain), upgrading to a 4CIF/D1 DVR will definitely improve the recorded and monitored resolution. The difference will be more obvious if your cameras are higher resolution to begin with (500+ lines vs. 330-lines), but there will be a difference in any case.

 

It is up to you to decide if you want to go the extra mile with 960H or megapixel resolutions. Something to keep in mind, as I explained previously, is that you would need to change out both the cameras and the DVR to see the benefits from either 960H or megapixel. MP cameras will not work on analog DVRs. 960H cameras will give you no better resolution on 4CIF/D1 DVRs.

 

Also keep in mind that megapixel cameras often don't work as well in low light as the analog equivalents.

[survtech 0]

multiply 720x480 =345600 or ~ 0.35 MP

but in my opinion No DVR on market will give true D1 quality resolution recording

U will get D1 size but not quality

just repeating my self again my opinion

lot will not agree most likely

Actually, most 450+ line analog cameras are 768x494 pixels, which equals .38MP, but who's counting?

 

There is no real direct relationship between pixels and lines of resolution. Resolution lines are measured on a 3:3 section of the monitor where the second 3 is the full height. So 500 lines of resolution means the ability to differentiate between 250 alternating vertical black and white lines before they become a grey blur.

 

Looking at the picture below, the point on the chart where the lines become a blur would be the camera's horizontal resolution if you aimed a camera at the chart from a specific distance, etc.

 

 

Most testers point the camera at something like the chart below and zoom in or move the camera towards or away from the chart until it fills the screen, then look at the chart's vertical lines to read horizontal resolution.

 

[tomcctv 187]

Hi Brent1971. since you already have cameras in place. then your first option is to change your DVR. then see which cameras you are not happy with.

 

these units are D1 and also hybrid. so you can install either better analog cameras if needed and if requied you can also start using MP ip

 

 

 

http://surveillance.aver.com/model/embedded-hybrid-DVR-EH1008H-4-Nano

[nDAlk90 0]

+1

That's a nice unit.

 

http://www.amazon.com/AVerMedia-Technologies-NEH1004HN-EH1004H-Hybrid/dp/B004NBZB2O

 

Hi Brent1971. since you already have cameras in place. then your first option is to change your DVR. then see which cameras you are not happy with.

 

these units are D1 and also hybrid. so you can install either better analog cameras if needed and if requied you can also start using MP ip

 

 

 

http://surveillance.aver.com/model/embedded-hybrid-DVR-EH1008H-4-Nano

[survtech 0]

Brent, one more thing you should know is that camera manufacturers are notorious for overstating resolution. One example - most SD cameras have 768 horizontal pixels. While pixel count doesn't directly relate to resolution lines, let's say for giggles that they do. Since resolution lines are only supposed to be measured over 3/4 of the display width on a 4:3 display, that translates to 576 pixels (768/4*3). Even if pixels-to-lines translated on a one-to-one basis, the most an analog camera should be capable of is that 576 lines/pixels. Manufacturers who state their resolution is 600 or more lines are basically "fudging" the numbers by disregarding the NTSC spec which calls for measuring a square section of the frame and counting the entire width.

[Brent1971 0]

Thanks tom!

 

Wow never thought of a hybrid, which would be plug and play with my existing cameras, and also allow me to add IP cams as well. So, I could use this and have up to 7 analog cameras and a 2-5MP IP camera as well?

 

survtech, thats also (VERY) good info about resolution and specs and advertised lines, which makes a hybrid DVR very attractive, I can gain some from existing cameras by breaking the CIF limitation I have now, and add one or more IP megapixel cams going forward...

 

 

 

Hi Brent1971. since you already have cameras in place. then your first option is to change your DVR. then see which cameras you are not happy with.

 

these units are D1 and also hybrid. so you can install either better analog cameras if needed and if requied you can also start using MP ip

 

 

 

http://surveillance.aver.com/model/embedded-hybrid-DVR-EH1008H-4-Nano

[survtech 0]

Brent, sounds like a good plan and who knows, you just might be happy with the substantial improvement 4CIF/D1 recording will give you over CIF. Bear in mind that 4CIF requires approximately 4 times the bitrate (4x the pixels/lines) as CIF so you should increase storage by the same factor to get the same retention time. That's all else being equal...

[ak357 0]

 

Looking at the picture below, the point on the chart where the lines become a blur would be the camera's horizontal resolution if you aimed a camera at the chart from a specific distance, etc.

 

Most testers point the camera at something like the chart below and zoom in or move the camera towards or away from the chart until it fills the screen, then look at the chart's vertical lines to read horizontal resolution.

 

 

That why for some of my end users I create basic test chart

[TipoFloe 0]

Hi All, I have a 4 chan Hard drive DVR that has served me well for several years. But the camera resolution is just so-so even with good cameras with high line counts (540/600). I believe that the unit only "sees" less than that many lines and there is the key to the limit on clarity. (Right/Wrong?)

 

My neighbor mentioned a "Full D1" level is much clearer.

 

What is the deal and will a D1 DVR record better video off my better cameras which have 540 or 600 lines?

 

Can anyone recommend a 8 or 16ch D1 DVR that wont break the bank? Any suggestion son small bullet cameras that can get the MAXIMUM D1 quality effect?

 

Just looking to get the basics understood here and possibly a camera and dvr recommend or two.

 

Thanks this is my first post here!

 

It sounds like your 4 channel DVR is recording at CIF or perhaps even lower. Think of your setup like this:

 

You have a jug with 4 containers that is 1 cup size each (360(V)x240(H)). But you're trying to pour water into these 4 containers with 4 times higher size cups (720(V)x480(H)). In other words, even if your camera is capable of sending 540TV lines across to the DVR, if your DVR is only recording at 240 TV lines, then you're really wasting all your camera resources.

 

See if your DVR can change its recording resolution from 360x240 (CIF) to 720x240 (Half D1) or 720x480 (D1). It WILL make a HUGE difference as you're recording 4 times sharper. Of course, your storage will eat up 4 times faster also.

 

If you tell me the make and model, I should be able to suggest a few alternative models or simply look up how to increase the recording resolution on your DVR.