Requesting Comments on Security Cameras for Condo

[MiamiRob 0]

They said that the primary cable should be coax because it carries a signal better.

 

What are the distances to the cameras?

 

Best,

Christopher

 

 

Christopher,

 

The distances to most of the cameras is 150ft. max. Perhaps a some of the cameras are 300ft runs, but most cabling runs would be not be that long. What is the distance limitation of IP cameras? Is there the 250ft distance limitation of Ethernet?

 

The guy that runs that security companiy is insistent that coax should be used. Is there any advantage of coax over cat5e? Why would he insist on using coax?

 

Rob

[rory 0]

They said that the primary cable should be coax because it carries a signal better.

 

What are the distances to the cameras?

 

Best,

Christopher

 

 

Christopher,

 

The distances to most of the cameras is 150ft. max. Perhaps a some of the cameras are 300ft runs, but most cabling runs would be not be that long. What is the distance limitation of IP cameras? Is there the 250ft distance limitation of Ethernet?

 

The guy that runs that security companiy is insistent that coax should be used. Is there any advantage of coax over cat5e? Why would he insist on using coax?

 

Rob

 

Huh?? See now you got me confused. 52 (cheap OEM) cameras and 3 (cheap OEM) DVRs installed with max 150' distance runs ... and the job is over? What is the price again, just for the CCTV? I mean using those IR Bullet cameras you could probably get away with just Color or BW bullets in some areas saving you alot of money. Did they physically come and quote this job at night, how many times did they come there, how long did they spend there? Or did they just use your Security Consultants listing from 3 years ago and base the quote off of that?

[cglaeser 0]

Why would he insist on using coax?

 

I expect it's because that's all he's ever done. I would be shocked if he has done large IP installations. And if he's never worked with Cat5e, you need to find another installer.

 

Best,

Christopher

[rory 0]

Why would he insist on using coax?

 

I expect it's because that's all he's ever done. I would be shocked if he has done large IP installations. And if he's never worked with Cat5e, you need to find another installer.

 

Best,

Christopher

 

Hold on now .. there is a first time for anything .. Ive never installed an IP Video Camera System either .. but that doesnt mean I cant handle it .. and BTW I have handled cat5 thousands of times. I would suggest they have an electrician do the wire runs though, whichever method they choose. That price he posted sounds like its all megapixel Wireless IP cameras with 10TB storage and thing.

[rory 0]

300' or so is fine for Coax, I think like me most were thinking you had mile long runs!

Another option at this point in time would be to look at Video IP servers - you can still use the non IP cameras to save cost and get low lighting capability, but maybe run some of them close to each other to video servers, then run that cat5 back to the central location, or even at the kind of budget you have, maybe even Wireless. Could even add some cheaper IP cameras where there is alot of light, indoors for example. Eventually you could always upgrade later and add megapixels or change the software, hardware as needed. That or use baluns and DVRs. 52 runs of coax around an outside property just sounds like alot. If i was to take on a job like that right now, I would go cat5 no questions asked.

 

Also, not sure how computer literate you guys are, but I would look for PC DVR or NVR for better evidence sharing capabilities as well as typically more storage, and especially dealing with that many cameras.

[MiamiRob 0]

Rob

 

Huh?? See now you got me confused. 52 (cheap OEM) cameras and 3 (cheap OEM) DVRs installed with max 150' distance runs ... and the job is over? What is the price again, just for the CCTV? I mean using those IR Bullet cameras you could probably get away with just Color or BW bullets in some areas saving you alot of money. Did they physically come and quote this job at night, how many times did they come there, how long did they spend there? Or did they just use your Security Consultants listing from 3 years ago and base the quote off of that?

 

 

Christopher,

 

To my knowledge, they have never been to our property at night. I was not the person who took them through the proprerty. We have a project management company that does that. However, I think that they were here once for a hour or so before the quoted the work using the plans we provided. However, they could have been on site much longer than an hour. I am not sure.

 

the pricing is as follows:

 

AC Hardware $30,672.00

AC Labor $46,455.00 ($95\hour)

AC Cabling-Misc $26,400.00

AC Computer $19,200.00

Total Access Control $122,727.00

 

Camera- Cameras $33,015.00

Camera- Labor $31,160.00 ($95\hour)

Camera- Cabling-Misc $30,400.00

Total Cameras $94,575.00

 

Sec Desk - Computer $15,840 (PCs and DVRs, Monitors)

Sec Desk - Labor $18,050

Sec Desk - Wiring/Misc $12,000

Sec Desk - Hardware $7,680

Total Security Desk $53,570.00

Note: this is the desk in the lobby where the guards will sit and monitor the system.

 

$75,000 had been budgeted for conduit for access control and camera systems

[MiamiRob 0]

Another option at this point in time would be to look at Video IP servers - you can still use the non IP cameras to save cost and get low lighting capability, but maybe run some of them close to each other to video servers, then run that cat5 back to the central location, or even at the kind of budget you have, maybe even Wireless.

 

Rory,

 

I mentioned wireless today but the security company said that when it rained the signal would get bad or not work and that to have wireless cameras that worked we would have to spend a lot of money. The head of the security company laughed real loud and said, "no way, no wireless cameras."

 

This guy only wants to install his coax runs to his cheap analog cameras. Are Everfocus 1000 PTZs that cost $1500 any good or is that a really mediocre PTZ camera?

 

Rob

[rory 0]

Rory,

 

I mentioned wireless today but the security company said that when it rained the signal would get bad or not work and that to have wireless cameras that worked we would have to spend a lot of money. The head of the security company laughed real loud and said, "no way, no wireless cameras."

 

This guy only wants to install his coax runs to his cheap analog cameras. Are Everfocus 1000 PTZs that cost $1500 any good or is that a really mediocre PTZ camera?

 

Rob

 

Any $1500 retail PTZ is going to be rather mediocre anyway .. I mean its no Pelco or GE .. but it should work. 18x is not that far a zoom though. Also, why PTZ? Is someone always watching it, and are there also fixed cameras placed there incase the PTZ is off looking at something else?

 

Wireless can have issues, but I only mentioned wireless as it seemed as if the wire runs were way too costly.

[rory 0]

 

To my knowledge, they have never been to our property at night. I was not the person who took them through the proprerty. We have a project management company that does that. However, I think that they were here once for a hour or so before the quoted the work using the plans we provided. However, they could have been on site much longer than an hour. I am not sure.

Project Management company, or property management? The latter, yeah they can be a real hassle to deal with, they also can cause jobs to take longer to get started and finalized, as one has to go between them and the board. I see you are getting directly involved though and that is a good thing. If the cameras will be outside in the night, they need to do a quote at night, if they havent already, ask about lighting capabilities of the cameras in each location they are being placed, eg distances of any IR.

 

the pricing is as follows:

 

Camera- Cameras $33,015.00

Camera- Cabling-Misc $30,400.00

 

Sec Desk - Computer $15,840 (PCs and DVRs, Monitors)

 

$79255

 

This is the price we are interested in .. well their labour also but the desk itself is not part of my initial concern .. so basically the hardware for the CCTV system is $80K, 52 cameras, 2 (or 3?) DVRs, and Cable. If its stand alone DVRs, what are the PCs for? Are they putting the DVRs on a network for the security to view the cameras on the computers? Or is that for the Access control or Administration only? Do you want your Security officers to be able to mess with Computers? Maybe just give them a PTZ controller and Monitor and thats it?

[rory 0]

I hope you heard this wrong. They will run all Cat5e and convert coax to Cat5e, right?

 

Best,

Christopher

 

i think they meant it as they said it, there are Cat5 cameras, with built in Baluns basically or UTP transmission (some GE cameras have UTP option for example), but one would hardly use that only to convert it back to coax to run on coax cable back to the DVR so yes they seem a little confused .. kind of.

[cglaeser 0]

there are Cat5 cameras, with built in Baluns basically or UTP transmission (some GE cameras have UTP option for example), but one would hardly use that only to convert it back to coax to run on coax cable back to the DVR so yes they seem a little confused .. kind of.

 

Yes, they seem confused. I'm guessing they always run coax and that's their comfort zone. One other consideration, if you run Cat5, it would save the cost of pulling Cat5 in the future should you decide to upgrade to IP cameras. For this budget, I would get three quotes.

 

Best,

Christopher

[destro_23 0]

Rob

 

Huh?? See now you got me confused. 52 (cheap OEM) cameras and 3 (cheap OEM) DVRs installed with max 150' distance runs ... and the job is over? What is the price again, just for the CCTV? I mean using those IR Bullet cameras you could probably get away with just Color or BW bullets in some areas saving you alot of money. Did they physically come and quote this job at night, how many times did they come there, how long did they spend there? Or did they just use your Security Consultants listing from 3 years ago and base the quote off of that?

 

 

Christopher,

 

To my knowledge, they have never been to our property at night. I was not the person who took them through the proprerty. We have a project management company that does that. However, I think that they were here once for a hour or so before the quoted the work using the plans we provided. However, they could have been on site much longer than an hour. I am not sure.

 

the pricing is as follows:

 

AC Hardware $30,672.00

AC Labor $46,455.00 ($95\hour)

AC Cabling-Misc $26,400.00

AC Computer $19,200.00

Total Access Control $122,727.00

 

Camera- Cameras $33,015.00

Camera- Labor $31,160.00 ($95\hour)

Camera- Cabling-Misc $30,400.00

Total Cameras $94,575.00

 

Sec Desk - Computer $15,840 (PCs and DVRs, Monitors)

Sec Desk - Labor $18,050

Sec Desk - Wiring/Misc $12,000

Sec Desk - Hardware $7,680

Total Security Desk $53,570.00

Note: this is the desk in the lobby where the guards will sit and monitor the system.

 

$75,000 had been budgeted for conduit for access control and camera systems

 

 

Cabling

---------------------------------------------------------------

Camera- Cabling-Misc $30,400.00

Sec Desk - Wiring/Misc $12,000

AC Cabling-Misc $26,400.00

total ~ $69,000

 

1000' cat5 ~ 100 (ass. 200' per camera = 5 cameras per box) 11 boxes = 55 cameras.

total ~ $1100 lets say $2000 (i always round up for good measure) - but i'm not sure what to add for conduit.. can't be more then $5000 of mis cable supplies.

 

he's going to buy a new bmw 335(yes the one with the turbo) with just the cable.

 

 

DVR/Computers

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Sec Desk - Computer $15,840 (PCs and DVRs, Monitors)

AC Hardware $30,672.

AC Computer $19,200.00

 

I'm guessing the AC Hardware is what powers all the cameras? i think he might be about 20k to much.. i've never powered large amounts of cameras. so not sure on this one..

 

AC computer... what is that? is it powering a nuclear reactor? he has DVR listed at the Sec Desk???? the AC computer can't also be a DVR?

 

OK the DVR's lets say we build a really sweet i7 quad core machine with about 4tb storage 4 to 8 gigs ram.. including a 32 channel dvr card/cards $5000 x2 = $10,000 give or take $1 or $2k

 

For the Security desk.... yes i say get a nice looking desk maybee even a custom one if you want... with a tall front side where you can stick some monitors under and out of sight..

 

all you need is 2 or 3 normal PC's with dvr software installed so $3000 for computers there.. a few thousand for a custom desk. All these PC's do is connect to the DVR's over a network.. so i'm not sure why so special..

 

with this.. this guy is going to put a large chunk towards his mortgage help retire him early.

 

Labor

------------------------------------------------------

AC Labor $46,455.00 ($95\hour)

Camera- Labor $31,160.00 ($95\hour)

Sec Desk - Labor $18,050

 

not sure.. but i think he is double charging you for wiring.

 

 

 

basically you run a wire from camera to dvr... ok then you plug wire into camera.. and you plug wire into dvr..

 

i'm outta time for now...

 

Don't get me wrong he does need to make money just like the rest of us.. for a job like this i would happy pocketing a good amount.. but since you came to a board like this... your going to get "cost" estimates... this is just a good ol No lube... Bend over and take it

Edited January 26, 2010 by Guest

[cglaeser 0]

he's going to buy a new bmw 335(yes the one with the turbo) with just the cable.

 

Does that cable line item only include the cost of the wire?

 

Best,

Christopher

[rory 0]

Does that cable line item only include the cost of the wire?

 

Best,

Christopher

 

yes he said conduit is extra.

[rory 0]

1000' cat5 ~ 100 (ass. 200' per camera = 5 cameras per box) 11 boxes = 55 cameras.

total ~ $1100 lets say $2000 (i always round up for good measure) - but i'm not sure what to add for conduit.. can't be more then $5000 of mis cable supplies.

 

$5 per 10' of conduit, 200' per camera, 20 x 10' pieces of conduit per camera, $100 per camera, approx $5200 for all camera conduit?

 

that cost of wire you posted is cheap though, down here it is at least 3 times that. But in Miami yep it might be that.

[MiamiRob 0]

I see some people have asked more questions about the pricing so I will recap...

 

Total Labor (Cameras and AC system) $95,665 ($95\hour)

Total Cabling $68,800 (Cameras and AC system) ($95\hour)

Total Conduit $75,000 (budgeted - will be done by electrician)

Total Access Control Hardware $30,672.00

Access Control Computer systems $19,200.00

Total Cameras $33,015.00

Camera details is as follows:

9 of Sa-SCC 4301 Hi Powered Zoom, $320 each

13 of Speco CVC 650 IRVF Dome, $320 each

13 of Speco CVC 650 IRVF Dome Wall Camera Mount, $80 each

13 of Speco CVC 6700, $320 each

12 of Everfocus EPTZ 1000, $1,560 each

12 of Everfocus EPTZ 1000 Wall Camera Mount, $104 each

5 of Speco CVC - 60, $336 each (for elevators)

 

Security Desk - Computer $15,840 (PCs and DVRs, Monitors)

Security Desk - Hardware $7,680 (not sure what this is for)

Note: this is the desk in the lobby where the guards will sit and monitor the system.

 

We got three bids from three security companies this bid was the middle bid. However, the bidders were chosen by our project management company. Maybe they chose bidders of a certain type, etc.

 

I saw that someone wrote than a ten foot lenght of conduit is $5, but is that installed? How much should an electrician charge to mount the conduit on the wall\ceiling?

 

How much would a company typically charge for a cable run to a camera?

How much would a company typically charge to connect a camera to the cable and to the DVR?

The company is saying that calculates six hours x $95 ($570) a device. They said that cost includes the cabling work, the connecting to the DVR, their workers comp, etc. They said that they calculate every card reader, door opener, etc. at $570. That seem very high to me.

 

I appreciate everyone's continue input. This is incredibly helpful.

 

Robert

[Rickseven4 0]

Rob, I'm pretty sure I can get you better pricing. Shoot me an email with your info and I will get you some good pricing.

[rory 0]

 

I saw that someone wrote than a ten foot lenght of conduit is $5, but is that installed? How much should an electrician charge to mount the conduit on the wall\ceiling?

 

How much would a company typically charge for a cable run to a camera?

How much would a company typically charge to connect a camera to the cable and to the DVR?

The company is saying that calculates six hours x $95 ($570) a device. They said that cost includes the cabling work, the connecting to the DVR, their workers comp, etc. They said that they calculate every card reader, door opener, etc. at $570. That seem very high to me.

 

No, not installed. I dont know what an electrician will charge in your area.

Typically to run just the cable here, approx $25 per run, maybe more, normal distances only.

Whoever is installing the conduit should be pulling the cable, whenever it involves conduit, i use an electrician. I have no idea about Workers comp, does not exist here. I have no idea about Access control, I just sub that part out to locksmiths.

[destro_23 0]

 

I saw that someone wrote than a ten foot lenght of conduit is $5, but is that installed? How much should an electrician charge to mount the conduit on the wall\ceiling?

 

How much would a company typically charge for a cable run to a camera?

How much would a company typically charge to connect a camera to the cable and to the DVR?

The company is saying that calculates six hours x $95 ($570) a device. They said that cost includes the cabling work, the connecting to the DVR, their workers comp, etc. They said that they calculate every card reader, door opener, etc. at $570. That seem very high to me.

 

No, not installed. I dont know what an electrician will charge in your area.

Typically to run just the cable here, approx $25 per run, maybe more, normal distances only.

Whoever is installing the conduit should be pulling the cable, whenever it involves conduit, i use an electrician. I have no idea about Workers comp, does not exist here. I have no idea about Access control, I just sub that part out to locksmiths.

 

 

I agree with Rory..

 

See if subbing everything out would be better.. locksmiths that specialize in the AC... CCTV only people.. and then an electrician to wire what everyone wants/needs.

 

might save about 80k

[MiamiRob 0]

I got the dimensions of our property. It is a rectangle measuring about 580ft. along the street and extending back about 300ft. (174,000 sq. ft.) The wiring room and equipment room is about halfway back from the street and about a third of the way from one end of the property. In other words, the cabling all runs back to a location that, while not exactly in the middle of the property, is fairly close to the middle.

 

I have read people comment on the use of coax versus cat5e. I am embarassed to say that I am not yet clear on which type of cable everyone feels should be run. So I hope that everyone will not mind if I re-ask some questions in an effort to understand the cabling type...

 

Can IP cameras run over coax? The security company says that using coax for IP cameras is fine and that balans are just need to switch from coax to cat5e. I work with large computer networks and we always try to minimize the number of connection in cable runs. Connectors, patch panels, etc. are all sources of potential problems. A straight cable run is always best. I don't understand why they would push coax and say that adding a balan is as good as a single cat5e cable.

 

Right now, all the cameras that the company is suggesting we install are analog. They said that the cameras could run over cat5e but that the signal would not be as clear as over coax. Is that true? Does cate5e not work well with analog cameras?

 

Is it possible that the cameras they want to use only have coax connectors on the back and that is why they are pushing coax?

 

In that I work with computer networks, I would very used to cat5e and cat6 cable and coax seems thick and not as easy to work with. I would think that it would be better to go with cat5e. However, the security company seems very opposed to even considering the idea of cat5e and seems set on coax. They base their decision on their belief that coax carries a better signal.

 

I again want to thank all of you for your expert advice.

 

Rob

[hardwired 0]

One possibility for your complex, is if you own the telephone cabling throughout the complex before it reaches a telco connection, and it comes to a central point, would be to see if you have any unused pairs in the cabling coming in from separate buildings that you could use for video.

 

I did an apartment complex a while back with a mix of analog video and IP cameras over DSL extenders this way, and the labor was a fraction of what cabling the complete complex would have been.

 

You might also want to look into options with IP based access control. It kind of sounds like your provider isn't much for thinking outside the box... You might get better luck with another integrator.

[scorpion 0]

Hello!

 

I wish I had the opportunity to bid on this job!

 

Perhaps you can take a tour of an election supervisor's warehouse to see how we covered all of the election equipment, and the balloting areas as an idea to add to your plan?

 

I will not be chiming in on the equipment, but I thought I would put in my two cents.

 

When it comes to your equipment it does not matter the specs in my book. It is the job that the camera has to do that would dictate the camera specs, and model numbers. I am guilty of using below par cameras in some spots allowing me to go up above par in other critical areas. I use the teeter totter approach when selecting cameras, and equipment based on the environment.

 

I see that "security is of the essence". I see that you want to "see" what is going on with the property.

 

What I have not heard is:

 

Will the tenants be accessing the video?

Will the garage have license plate recognition releasing gates?

Will you have at the road level a camera that catches the plates?

Will video be viewed by Iphones (PDA, or other cellular) by security, or the directors?

How will you get the video of a tresspasser to the police dept?

You say you have on site security, and I would ask do you have a system to watch the watchers? In other words can you trust the security, and if so how do you document what the condo association pays for. In other words do you have it set up so when a guard walks a path that it is verified, and he is not sleeping, and just writing on a log sheet that he performed his route?

 

Do you have layers of security. With this price tag I would be using plant life to add to the security level. In other words I like hedges and a sidewalk. The hedges "funnel" people to the sidewalk allowing you a good facial shot, and if they go through the hedges then let them have fun in the brambles!

 

Do not trust anyone to include the "alarm, CCTV, and security trades. Know how to changes your passwords, and codes as soon as they are off site! I would run a week without passcodes to allow for training then use the passcodes given by the trades, and then I would lock out the trades with new passcodes.

 

In other words how much would someone pay to get on your property by bribing a low level tech that had access?

 

Do you have someone to do an intrusion test? In other words can I bypass the alarm sensors on the doors allowing entrance?

 

If there is a situation where a guard has to respond then would it not be valuable for him to see video while mobile getting to the site. Is it a fight? How many are involved? Is there a perp? What does he look like? What is he wearing? The guard can get instant info if he has some kind of device allowing him to monitor video. It could be cellular based such as a pda, wifi based such as with some "phones" with wifi ability, or it could be a wireless analog monitor on 2.4Ghz that is patched through to the transmitter by the central control.

 

If I kill your power to the complex what happens to the electronic access? Do they remain unlocked due to the lack of power? What is the contingency plan in this situation? I would have traditional mechanical locks in place when power goes down after a power outage, or a hurricane. Do you have batteries, and an inverter to jump in for temp power outages?

 

Do you have solar power, or a stand by generator? If you have a stand by generator then I demand an inverter, and batteries in case the generator does not come on.

 

I recommend IP based equipment. In other words you have a new contractor (lawn, pool, AC, plumbing) and he shows up to take care of an issue. He cannot get in because someone gave him the wrong code, or he wrote it down wrong, or he just showed up from a phone call. Someone can log in to a computer and add a passcode, and then delete the passcode when the contractor is off premise.

 

Make your system flexible, and redundant.

 

What if the guards go on strike? What is the back up plan. Set up your security system to allow for this contingency. What if you cease a contract with one company, and start a new contract with a new company, but they do not overlap timewise? What if there is a gap between one service leaving, and another service starting? What if the economic future dictates that you must stop using guard services for a time frame?

 

Plan now, and then you will have a smooth future!

 

I am not saying you have to go out and buy all kinds of crazy systems. I am just saying think about it. Invest in the infrastructure now. You can alway install the wiring now, and then when the "contingency" situation comes up, then you can buy what ever products you need at a later date. If the wiring is there then you are good to go!

 

If you have "holes", or gaps in your property coverage can you use paintball land mines to mark an intruder in blue? He cannot deny being on property if he is marked!

 

I have more to say if you are interested.

[rory 0]

Ask them:

 

1-Is the CVC-6700 a high res camera - if they say yes you know they are full of it. While on that camera, should ask them why they are quoting you a cheap 1/4" low res camera. Additionally as it is has a sunshield it is obviously going outside, if not then why they are quoting a color bullet camera with a sun shield (there are many other choices), and if going outside, will there be full light at night - otherwise it wont see anything as going by the specs it has 1 lux color and needs daylight type lighting.

 

2-I cannot find any camera on Speco's website with the model number CVC-650 - perhaps it is very outdated, and if so, why are they quoting you that?

 

3-CVC-60 - pretty much the same as #1

 

Ive had issues using baluns, quality and overall image loss, others say they have not. I try not to use them. Some are better or worse then others. NVT has some decent high end priced stuff. Active (amplified) any brand would be best. Quality drop on passive baluns is typically greater then that of Coax or starts decreasing at a lower distance, but it still depends on the brand of balun, cat5, and other factors. You can amplify coax out to 2000-3000', with cat5 and or cat6 UTP transmission being amplified out to 1.5-3 miles.

 

But as for Coax and IP, i would use Cat5, I dont see any reason to use coax for networking unless that is what is there currently and you want to utilize that for a network?

 

Yes the cameras are BNC. very few actually come with UTP built in and the ones that do would typically only come that way if you order them specifically.

 

About analog cameras, see my sig.

 

Basically there are choices out there, there is no one way to do it, you have to choose what you feel is best for your application, and what you can handle.

 

As mentioned you could also see if there are any free telco pairs you can use, depending on where they are located in proximity to the cameras.

[destro_23 0]

At this point...

 

Don't rush into anything as you are learning alot now.

 

I would go and get a few more estimates (they are free anyway)

 

1. Sub it out..

2. Get a quote from

a. Electrician - call local Union and ask for 3 or 4 electricians

b. CCTV installer (let them know "condo" electrician will do all the wiring they need just tell them specs of wire/cable)

c. Access Control (professional locksmith + same as above let them know you are going to run wires with "Condo" electrician.. just let electrician know exactly what they need)

d. I like sticking with Union workers ONLY because they won't just get up and leave in middle of job and if they do...

 

I seriously think it's going to be 50-80k+ less this way..

 

Get quotes from a few electricians to do all the wiring for the Access system and and for the cctv weather it be cat5 or coax.

 

Think of everything that needs to be wired as a small pc.. your going to have 52 cameras connect to a server... thats all.. no more no less. and the same for the Access Control system.. each door/swipe is going to have a single cable that powers and sends signal to central server.. thats it.

[C.O.P. 0]

I love watching you guys work... but isn't this kind of a "another name for the nick name of Richard-block" to a fellow CCTV company?

 

I'll answer that question myself. No. You don't want a negative experience to put a black eye on your profession. I think it would be wonderful if all professions policed themselves.

 

There is one thing I don't think I saw discussed yet... over runs! I have had the wonderful experience two times now where a contractor gets to a crucial point in a project then tries to up the contract cost because of "unforeseen circumstances". I believe subbing out the work to the various professionals could help this. The idea being the overall project is broken into smaller, more specialized, pieces so if you have a problem at any point, it will be easier to find a replacement contractor for that piece.

 

Another tactic I have seen (I hear is pretty common in construction) is loading up on jobs to secure future work. The contractor takes on more projects than he can handle then "meters out" his workforce to try to keep all the customers "happy". I have also been the victim of this practice. A simple clause that imposes a penalty of some type for each day/week past due the project is will help get the contractor to "focus" on your job.

 

Do the residents still want the association to spend these $$$ on a massive security system or would they rather have something else? Not to get off topic but if you guys have gone years without this system, why do it now? Have there been problems? If so, can you address them with a smaller scope project?

 

Last thing is... and I think someone may have touched on it... I wouldn't trust plans that are years old unless I walked around and confirmed by good old common sense that they made sense. You'd probably have to do it at night and also during the day... looking for bright spots and shadows. You have had some pretty wonderful advice tossed out there but I think you need to decide your risk factor and what you can really expect to prevent here. A system to counter a hardened and experience criminal would have to be much more hardy and thought through than a system to simply prevent grafiti and petty theft. Are you looking to stop the "james bond" kind of guys (you'd be looking for coverage on rooftops, all windows, fire escapes, body count in vs body count out... the ideas are endless!) or simply keeping bitter exes and vandals at bay by forcing them to go to easier targets? What is the makeup of the residents? Would they be high risk or low risk? What about individual security... there are locks/alarms on the doors, windows, and peepholes???

 

In short, if you want fort knox, get a designer (not this guy) that can handle the job and expect to pay for it. If you want "reasonable" safety and/or chances to catch perps... common sense goes a long way.

 

Normally, I'd say it's ok if this guy is a little over his head (I think Rory said... first time for everything.) BUT the fact he seems unwilling to be flexible and learn a few things tells me he should get what he deserves... nothing.

 

Out of curiosity... why did they pick the mid quote again? seems odd. Perhaps the management company has something to gain here??? It's not unheard of. Perhaps you should let these guys know what the other bids quoted for hardware. If the high bidder quoted much better equipment (with lower markups) they may be the better choice. Heck, the low bidder may have quoted better equipment. I'll pay for honesty any day!

 

As you can tell, I am NOT a CCTV guy... I am just a fan of working smarter, not harder.

 

I remind you of the thread about "smart customers".