Anti - CCTV

[liveinxs 0]

i really don't have any problem with cameras in public, could be used as a deterrent against those wishing to commit crimes...

 

the way i see it , is if you aren't doing anything wrong, what harm could they possibly do, as far as red light cameras, again, if you don't run a light , you have nothing to worry about....

 

just as the cameras could be used against someone, they could be used to help someone...

 

in fact, just today, i received this book, i thought it might be a good read, plus i got it for only 3.96 used, delivered to my door,,, it looks brand new, amazon is a good place to shop....

 

Red light cameras can help to prevent quite nasty accidents so long as people are very aware they are there. but I agree with you that law abiding people have nothing to fear from CCTV it can only improve their safety. In some jurisdictions, they can be misused by government to track the movements of individuals unfairly, but in the free world, the USA and the UK have legislation to protect us against that. There is also the right to film or photograph in public to consider, you can't legislate for one type of camera and not another because it would be unenforceable or at least riddled with difficulties. There is no point.

 

Local Police fully support my using a PTZ camera to film individuals that loiter in the area and that regularly behave in an anti-social manner in public. One neighbour has been placed on a reduced tenancy because the video I supplied my landlords and police has shown a pattern in the troublemakers being associated with particular households in this street.

 

I have no sympathy on those who object to CCTV in public places. I give them the benefit of the doubt that they are genuinely worried for the right reasons but governments make legislation to protect against misuse of such systems and generally CCTV is there to protect the innocent and the vulnerable.

 

I had a cursory read of that book, you are right I think it would be worth a read. I may buy a copy to understand the other side of this interesting debate. Yes CCTV does enpower the operators ( I feel mine has changed the dynamics of the game), but most have CCTV to protect their interests and those of their customers and that extends to police and government protecting us in fact more so official departments.

 

Good thread....

 

PS I live in a reasonably good neighborhood, I am damned if I will allow it to gain a bad reputation. Once that gets established it attracts the wrong sorts and puts the right type of neighbors off, coming to the area. THATS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN HERE!

I WON'T ALLOW IT TO HAPPEN.

 

 

hey numb,

 

i thought you might like it, stirred up some good conversation,,,again , as i said, do nothing wrong and you have no worries...

 

i think whats worse is this ez-pass we have in the states, in fact some states use it against drivers, by way of speeding tickets, the way they do that is, say you have a stretch of road where the speed limit is 65mph, now a driver goes from point a to b, now going the posted speed limit 65mph, it should take you 20 minutes, BUT when you get off at an exit and it only took you 17 minutes, they are able to show that you exceeded the speed limit and send you a ticket in the mail, no points, just monies for the state...

 

yes the book is pretty good, it talks of the writers efforts to go from one place to another and not be traced via cctv, also states that there are some 4.2 million cctv cameras in Britain...

[fa chris 0]

the way i see it, and this comes from a retired firefighter, before that i was a policeman for 11 years, your police force can't be too good/effective, if you would describe your area as a Bad neighborhood....

 

you don't say what state you live in, i myself reside in new jersey

 

The impression of other people in the area is it's a "bad" neighborhood. Reality is I could walking at midnight and never have a single issue... peoples perceptions vs the reality are two different things. Police will roll up in no time, most crime is property theft, very little violent crime and that's almost always against people who know each other, yet the gated community people have fear driven into their head from news reports. To each his own I guess, I had the same mentality before I moved here.

 

Like I said before, cameras are mainly for asset protection, not violent crime prevention.

[Numb-nuts 1]

It has been my experience that CCTV has set me free. Free from harassment, free from petty crime, free from teens that feel they can bully any resident and take ownership of the neighborhood, free from worry, my infallible friend, the expert witness, the witness with a perfect memory and my protector and my companion that saves the police a helluva lot of hassle. Believe me the police have noticed a sharp drop in the number of calls to this street since installing my PTZ camera.

 

Now if I need to call police or a neighbour calls police (which isn't that often) they respond in record time as they know there is a good chance of catching the offenders and a good chance of an arrest where appropriate.

 

It's okay to have the upper hand, but I am also conscience, but it's a mistake to crow about it in public as criminals will see that as a challenge to their street cred. I don't threaten anyone with CCTV, I merely hand over footahe to police and loow tem to do their job, they are appreciative as the last thing they want is to arrest normally law-abiding citizens.

 

There's many a person out there that uses weed and doesn't see themselves as a criminal, but that's just what they are.

Nobody is seeking to report these people to police unless their actions start to affect the peace in their community by bringing undesirables to the area. I do not decide who is an undesirable by a person's race religion etc but by their effect on the wider community. Anyway I don't need to decide that's the job of law enforcement and I allow them to get on with it, assisting when I can. The gangs think they have it made but I say to them I have a bigger gang than you do their color is Blue.

(depending where you live)

 

I think policing is not just the responsibility of the police that serve the community. If you see CCTV as an infringement of civil liberty then why aren't you complaining that there is a police force in every civilized community in the world? Because police are there to protect us and protect our free society. You wouldn't object to policing and laws protecting us would you? CCTV is just a tool that assists police in their very difficult task. Police spend far too much time dealing with petty crime, if they are aided by a tool that helps them do their job who has the right to object?

 

Anyway I respect everyone who has an opinion to express even when they don't see things the same way I do. My experience is that of a lot of folks and if you have never been harassed by gangs of teens out of their heads on booze and damaging everything in sight, then you can't imagine what a relief it is to change things and I always feel happier where there is CCTV.

My only problem with CCTV anywhere is that I tend to inspect it and it must look suspicious to the operators and if I am in a bank you can see the tellers starting to sweat

 

Anyway I love CCTV more than most of my friends.

[Numb-nuts 1]

hey numb,

 

i thought you might like it, stirred up some good conversation,,,again , as i said, do nothing wrong and you have no worries...

 

i think whats worse is this ez-pass we have in the states, in fact some states use it against drivers, by way of speeding tickets, the way they do that is, say you have a stretch of road where the speed limit is 65mph, now a driver goes from point a to b, now going the posted speed limit 65mph, it should take you 20 minutes, BUT when you get off at an exit and it only took you 17 minutes, they are able to show that you exceeded the speed limit and send you a ticket in the mail, no points, just monies for the state...

 

yes the book is pretty good, it talks of the writers efforts to go from one place to another and not be traced via cctv, also states that there are some 4.2 million cctv cameras in Britain...

 

Here in the UK we have GATSO speed cameras. They work on the same principal except they work from lines painted on the road. You immediately know if you've been caught as the camera flashes twice. The cameras work by being visible and acting as a deterrent. Even I speed at times but I try to be aware of my speed, the cameras being very overt are a reminder Problem is, of course that criminals clone plates and some people get fines for nothing and the responsibility to prove innocence is the motorist. In these cases you are guilty until proven innocent. That is my only gripe with cameras.

They are planning to improve these cameras to detect and fine tailgaters too, that I would appreciate.

 

View frim rear of a GATSO speed camera

[Numb-nuts 1]

 

 

 

[rory 0]

Reality is I could walking at midnight and never have a single issue

Then you are in a very good area. Cant walk around midday here without a 50-50 chance of having multiple issues. And having watched American TV shows it would appear its much worse there. Then again a couple Canadian TV shows makes Canada out to look like South Central .. so

[rory 0]

lastly.

anyone that has problems with public CCTV cameras must also have problems with it in stores and also problems with cell phones and digital cameras - cant have it one way and not the other.

If you want to get rid of CCTV cameras then also get rid of cell phones and digital cameras, and go tell wall mart take their cameras down as its impeding on your privacy.

[Numb-nuts 1]

and the police, don't forget the police get rid of them, let the bullies rule.......

[rory 0]

I must say though and not sure how this is elsewhere, but here we need to fix our legal system before we start putting CCTV everywhere, even if they catch them they will be right out on bail or get charged for manslaughter instead of murder as they do in most cases now. And one thing that I found ridiculous the other day was our chief of police saying he thinks no citizen should have a gun, that is what he and the police are for. 20 years ago, cops didnt have guns here. Meanwhile iron bars on the windows and doors are the order of the day as deadly home invasions increase and the murder rate doubles this year. Gun or no gun, I am never without some kind of weapon, the cops cant be everywhere.

[Numb-nuts 1]

I must say though and not sure how this is elsewhere, but here we need to fix our legal system before we start putting CCTV everywhere, even if they catch them they will be right out on bail or get charged for manslaughter instead of murder as they do in most cases now. And one thing that I found ridiculous the other day was our chief of police saying he thinks no citizen should have a gun, that is what he and the police are for. 20 years ago, cops didnt have guns here. Meanwhile iron bars on the windows and doors are the order of the day as deadly home invasions increase and the murder rate doubles this year. Gun or no gun, I am never without some kind of weapon, the cops cant be everywhere.

 

This thread is in danger of going off at a tangent Rory, that's a whole other debate isn't it.

 

Fact is that guns are difficult to get hold of here and thank goodness for it. I used to have a FireArms Certificate and had hand guns before they were outlawed and we had to surrender them to police to be destroyed. I didn't like it but I didn't complain either as it was for the benefit of the wider community. Only serious crims use guns here thank heavens.

 

Anyway I am in favor of CCTV in all places except restrooms.

[liveinxs 0]

the way i see it, and this comes from a retired firefighter, before that i was a policeman for 11 years, your police force can't be too good/effective, if you would describe your area as a Bad neighborhood....

 

you don't say what state you live in, i myself reside in new jersey

 

The impression of other people in the area is it's a "bad" neighborhood. Reality is I could walking at midnight and never have a single issue... peoples perceptions vs the reality are two different things. Police will roll up in no time, most crime is property theft, very little violent crime and that's almost always against people who know each other, yet the gated community people have fear driven into their head from news reports. To each his own I guess, I had the same mentality before I moved here.

 

Like I said before, cameras are mainly for asset protection, not violent crime prevention.

 

"police will roll up", that sounds like ghetto slang, most of the people i locked up spoke like that, just where do you live...you haven't answered that question....

Edited July 21, 2011 by Guest

[liveinxs 0]

It has been my experience that CCTV has set me free. Free from harassment, free from petty crime, free from teens that feel they can bully any resident and take ownership of the neighborhood, free from worry, my infallible friend, the expert witness, the witness with a perfect memory and my protector and my companion that saves the police a helluva lot of hassle. Believe me the police have noticed a sharp drop in the number of calls to this street since installing my PTZ camera.

 

Now if I need to call police or a neighbour calls police (which isn't that often) they respond in record time as they know there is a good chance of catching the offenders and a good chance of an arrest where appropriate.

 

It's okay to have the upper hand, but I am also conscience, but it's a mistake to crow about it in public as criminals will see that as a challenge to their street cred. I don't threaten anyone with CCTV, I merely hand over footahe to police and loow tem to do their job, they are appreciative as the last thing they want is to arrest normally law-abiding citizens.

 

There's many a person out there that uses weed and doesn't see themselves as a criminal, but that's just what they are.

Nobody is seeking to report these people to police unless their actions start to affect the peace in their community by bringing undesirables to the area. I do not decide who is an undesirable by a person's race religion etc but by their effect on the wider community. Anyway I don't need to decide that's the job of law enforcement and I allow them to get on with it, assisting when I can. The gangs think they have it made but I say to them I have a bigger gang than you do their color is Blue.

(depending where you live)

 

I think policing is not just the responsibility of the police that serve the community. If you see CCTV as an infringement of civil liberty then why aren't you complaining that there is a police force in every civilized community in the world? Because police are there to protect us and protect our free society. You wouldn't object to policing and laws protecting us would you? CCTV is just a tool that assists police in their very difficult task. Police spend far too much time dealing with petty crime, if they are aided by a tool that helps them do their job who has the right to object?

 

Anyway I respect everyone who has an opinion to express even when they don't see things the same way I do. My experience is that of a lot of folks and if you have never been harassed by gangs of teens out of their heads on booze and damaging everything in sight, then you can't imagine what a relief it is to change things and I always feel happier where there is CCTV.

My only problem with CCTV anywhere is that I tend to inspect it and it must look suspicious to the operators and if I am in a bank you can see the tellers starting to sweat

 

Anyway I love CCTV more than most of my friends.

 

 

your on the right track numb,

 

don't let some bone heads dissuade your beliefs, again , i repeat you do nothing wrong , you have nothing to fear...

[liveinxs 0]

Reality is I could walking at midnight and never have a single issue

Then you are in a very good area. Cant walk around midday here without a 50-50 chance of having multiple issues. And having watched American TV shows it would appear its much worse there. Then again a couple Canadian TV shows makes Canada out to look like South Central .. so

 

 

hey Rory,

 

don't let anyone bullsh**t you,,in the USA, there are plenty of places that are very dangerous, case in point, i live in new jersey, specifically Bridgewater, NJ, but there are places like Camden NJ, that are crime ridden, in fact the State Police had to come into that town to help...look it up, Camden NJ is one of the most dangerous places in the World, besides Afghanistan....

[Birdman Adam 0]

I'm in a neighborhood that is safe. But - we have like one house with some bad kids, and down the street a half mile there is a trailer park that the police are constantly going in and out of! So my problem is, people drive into our neighborhood to throw bottle out the window, hit mailboxes, and rob houses.

 

For me and the other neighbor who has cameras, we have been good. People DO notice the cameras, and everything they do from that point on they think twice about. I put up some no trespassing signs, along with CCTV signs. No more strangers walking around in the woods!

 

So even if you take out the fact that CCTV can aid in the persecution of someone, people realize they are being recorded, and think twice - often deciding NOT to throw that bottle out of the window.

[Campbell 0]

@Fa Chris.

 

I find the... "this is the beginning of a very slippery slope" argument illogical.

 

It's a classic "What if" scenario. It's akin to saying... we shouldn't allow mining because Company X will make steel out of it, and that steel will be used in the manufacturing of an atomic bomb, and then they could nuke the world. Yeah it's an extreme example but the principle still holds.

 

CCTV in public does not automatically lead to wire tapping and you're not going to have MI5 or the NSA or CIA or what ever sitting there listening to everything you do or following you around covertly. You aren't significant, you aren't being investigated. Stop being paranoid! You don't have any reason to be and you aren't sacrificing any freedoms!

 

If it was say... Google doing it so they could target you with advertising then yeah, I agree but it's not, it's the sodding government and that's an inefficient bureaucratic nightmare which couldn't tie its own shoelace!

[Numb-nuts 1]

The government wears shoelaces?

[fa chris 0]

lastly.

anyone that has problems with public CCTV cameras must also have problems with it in stores and also problems with cell phones and digital cameras - cant have it one way and not the other.

If you want to get rid of CCTV cameras then also get rid of cell phones and digital cameras, and go tell wall mart take their cameras down as its impeding on your privacy.

 

Camera phones aren't surveillance, wal mart is private property and used mainly for asset protection (most are dummy cameras anyways in my experience). Two completely different beasts... cameras in public paid for by you and me with the sole intent of finding us breaking some random law nobody even knew existed or tracking us in order for the gov't to make a buck is a problem.

 

I'm fine with cameras on cop cars too because again, it's for asset protection (mainly preventing costly lawsuits).

 

When the gov't starts spending money with the specific intent to invade my privacy but claim it's for public safety... then I have a problem.

[rory 0]

Camera phones aren't surveillance, wal mart is private property and used mainly for asset protection (most are dummy cameras anyways in my experience). Two completely different beasts... cameras in public paid for by you and me with the sole intent of finding us breaking some random law nobody even knew existed or tracking us in order for the gov't to make a buck is a problem.

 

Camera phones are still cameras, they still record you, in fact many go on youtube and facebook, even more privacy intrusion than a couple cops looking at it.

 

wall mart, still cctv, they are still watching you. They arent just going to watch the product as the product just doesnt up and walk away, they are watching people.

 

cameras on the streets primarily to be used in the case of a crime against a citizen, sounds like something much more useful to us citizens than being put on youtube to be ridiculed or be watched by store security as well go in and out of changing rooms.

 

stop worrying about random laws .. just be a good citizen (like not a criminal) and there is nothing to fear.

[Campbell 0]

lastly.

anyone that has problems with public CCTV cameras must also have problems with it in stores and also problems with cell phones and digital cameras - cant have it one way and not the other.

If you want to get rid of CCTV cameras then also get rid of cell phones and digital cameras, and go tell wall mart take their cameras down as its impeding on your privacy.

 

Camera phones aren't surveillance, wal mart is private property and used mainly for asset protection (most are dummy cameras anyways in my experience). Two completely different beasts... cameras in public paid for by you and me with the sole intent of finding us breaking some random law nobody even knew existed or tracking us in order for the gov't to make a buck is a problem.

 

I'm fine with cameras on cop cars too because again, it's for asset protection (mainly preventing costly lawsuits).

 

When the gov't starts spending money with the specific intent to invade my privacy but claim it's for public safety... then I have a problem.

 

What privacy is being invaded? You're in public... you have no privacy. Why do people think they have rights to not be observed in public. And despite your protestations, the government does not have an army of bureaucrats watching cameras all day long to find any sort of miniature trespass. It has better things to do than allocate funding to some old biddy watching for people who litter.

 

[fa chris 0]

Some guy doesn't have to be watching. Just need some video analytics.

 

Cost verse benefit just isn't there and trying to sell it as a means of "security" and "safety" is bull. Just like our fabulous TSA and homeland security... and like my point has always been, constant surveillance is the start.

 

If you want to sacrifice all your liberties, I can find a guy on craigslist to rubber glove your family before they enter your house to make sure they aren't hiding anything that could hurt you if you want.

[danger_e 0]

I'm pretty sure that you are taking the idea of surveillance to an illogical conclusion.

 

While I agree with your earlier assessment that if I was a victim of a crime I wouldn't be interested in getting the guy, I'd be more interested in putting myself back together, I do think that I would be interested in making sure that the same thing doesn't happen to someone else.

 

The suggestion that analytic software would somehow grant the government some kind of omniscient view of my private life is also a bit ridiculous. This isn't CSI, there isn't some magic software that can enhance and resolve aspects of my privacy that any camera can't see, and most CCTV is run by property owners, not the government. (at least in the states)

 

Also, I'm a little confused. You say that all the government needs is some analytic software to totally invade your privacy, and then you say that the cost/benefit ROI is not there.

 

Which is it? Is CCTV totally invading your privacy, or is it as useless?

[liveinxs 0]

you know i was thinking , how anyone would not like the idea of cameras in the public arena, then i remembered the recent murder that took place about a week ago in NYC, the murder involved a small little 8 year old boy, just in case you haven't heard about the case, the boy was on his way home from day camp, he had been asking his mom to let him walk home by himself a distance of approx. 7 blocks, and she agreed to let him walk a few blocks by himself, and she would meet him half way between home and day camp...

 

well the little boy got confused on his way home, and asked a man for help, the man offered the boy a ride home, but the boy never made it,,,about 3 days later, parts of the boys body was found in a dumpster, and the rest of the boys body, specifically his feet were found in the refrigerator of the man who offered him help when he got lost...

 

the way they found out who was the man who took the boy, and murdered him, and cut him up...was through video from a CCTV camera that was placed in an area to monitor the street...

 

so don't tell me any crap about your privacy, this little boy was slaughtered, and if not for the camera, this POS would and could still be on the street to do this again...

 

heres a link to story:

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/police-volunteers-search-for-9-year-old-hasidic-brooklyn-boy-who-vanished-while-walking-home/2011/07/13/gIQAaByyBI_story.html

[fa chris 0]

I'm pretty sure that you are taking the idea of surveillance to an illogical conclusion.

 

While I agree with your earlier assessment that if I was a victim of a crime I wouldn't be interested in getting the guy, I'd be more interested in putting myself back together, I do think that I would be interested in making sure that the same thing doesn't happen to someone else.

 

The suggestion that analytic software would somehow grant the government some kind of omniscient view of my private life is also a bit ridiculous. This isn't CSI, there isn't some magic software that can enhance and resolve aspects of my privacy that any camera can't see, and most CCTV is run by property owners, not the government. (at least in the states)

 

Also, I'm a little confused. You say that all the government needs is some analytic software to totally invade your privacy, and then you say that the cost/benefit ROI is not there.

 

Which is it? Is CCTV totally invading your privacy, or is it as useless?

 

It's not csi yet. CCTV has come a looooooong ways in the past 10 years. Who knows where it'll be in 10 more years.

 

CCTV definitely has it's uses, but having it everywhere is costly, and constantly watching everything everyone does anywhere in public would be an invasion of civil liberties.

 

To the extreme, it's similar to having a cop escort you everywhere. So no one's against random checkpoints? No ones against GPS tracking devices?

 

The biggest "pros" I've seen in this thread have been retribution against criminals and making $ for installing the thing. To me personally, the cons outweigh this, but to each his own.

[fa chris 0]

you know i was thinking , how anyone would not like the idea of cameras in the public arena, then i remembered the recent murder that took place about a week ago in NYC, the murder involved a small little 8 year old boy, just in case you haven't heard about the case, the boy was on his way home from day camp, he had been asking his mom to let him walk home by himself a distance of approx. 7 blocks, and she agreed to let him walk a few blocks by himself, and she would meet him half way between home and day camp...

 

well the little boy got confused on his way home, and asked a man for help, the man offered the boy a ride home, but the boy never made it,,,about 3 days later, parts of the boys body was found in a dumpster, and the rest of the boys body, specifically his feet were found in the refrigerator of the man who offered him help when he got lost...

 

the way they found out who was the man who took the boy, and murdered him, and cut him up...was through video from a CCTV camera that was placed in an area to monitor the street...

 

so don't tell me any crap about your privacy, this little boy was slaughtered, and if not for the camera, this POS would and could still be on the street to do this again...

 

heres a link to story:

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/police-volunteers-search-for-9-year-old-hasidic-brooklyn-boy-who-vanished-while-walking-home/2011/07/13/gIQAaByyBI_story.html

 

I'm well aware of the story. So the knee jerk reaction is to spend billions in a massive CCTV system to catch these one off situations that occur every once in a great while? What if the slaughter had been captured on tape and was now available on youtube thanks to a CCTV system being hacked?

 

We ended up with the TSA and homeland security thanks to these same types of half assed attempts to "feel" secure without actually being secure.

 

If we all had our GPS bracelets they could've found the kid immediately before he was harmed... we all put a different value on privacy. Don't try to blame me for a kid's death because I'm against a CCTV system monitoring all public areas.

[tomcctv 187]

CCTV definitely has it's uses, but having it everywhere is costly, and constantly watching everything everyone does anywhere in public would be an invasion of civil liberties

 

 

 

Fa chris. you do know that while you are walking down a street that has cameras the operator does not have a clue who you are. so how can it be an invasion.

 

 

most street cameras in america can be logged into by anyone. am 3500m away from DC but i can log in to any of there cameras just as i can in NY/NC/SC florida atlanta. they are put in with your money for you to also use. going on a long drive .... look at traffic (beat the jams)